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Zerk -

Japan has changed a lot since Hirohito and the Imperial Army and Navy sent their "postage stamps" into battle. I don't hold the Japanese people as a whole responsible any more than I hold white people responsible for the slavery and racial repression that preceded them but in which they had no part. It is easy to argue that many American goods are better quality because of foreign competition.

When I bought my Browning .22 Auto back in 1974, people told me I got screwed because it was after the switch from FN to Miroku and mine was Japanese. 43 years and untold thousands of rounds later and the only 'problem' is I've put some scratches in the wood. Dad gave me his Miroku-made Browning B92 lever-action carbine in .44 Mag. I've had it for about 35 years and the only problem is a spot of rust on the steel butt-plate, caused by Dad storing it where the butt-plate got scratched and damp.

The fact is it IS a global economy. If you try to buy a computer without foreign parts you will have a long wait - until one is made, if ever again. Same thing with cars and many other products.

When it comes to firearms, I'm going to buy quality and value. That may mean a new or used Savage or Ruger or Remington or 'Portuguese' Winchester or a Japanese Weatherby or Howa or a European CZ or Sig or Glock or whatever. What I will not do is spend my hard earned money on what I consider a POS just because it says "Made in America".

My S&W Walther had to go back to the factory because of a recall. t seems that if you used the decock safety with a loaded chamber, some would go boom. We all know the stories and many of us have seen the photos of Remington bolt handles coming off, but I've never heard of a Howa bolt coming off. I've also never heard of a Howa having the Remington FOR (Fire On Release) safety problem. My Mossberg shotgun was a POS from day one.

YMMV.

You can play the game I never heard of this brand or that brand having an issue, all day long. I live Mosberg, I ike the the safety location. I do not shoot trap, so I haven't put enough through to really say. But I tend to think they get a bad rap.

The 700 safety, can be debated too. The lawsuits were questionable, as to what realy happened. I have flicked mine off and on, loaded, in a safe direction. I am not
familar withe X trigger recall.

But you can say lots of guns have never had recalls. Which obviously is a good metric, but does it mean a gun that was improved is bad? Obviously it can show poor design standards or pushing a rifle to market to quickly.


As for Japan, they are not that far removed from their war with China. We have a couple generations on them when it comes to slavery. Slavery was normal. I also think when we did it, we didn't full understand that blacks were human, same with Indian. When they took sex slaves from surrounding countries, it was not because they though they were subhuman. Maybe because they thought they were better than them. But mostly they just wanted sex slaves. Which is how I think they see many things still.

In general look how savage or immoral non European based countries are. When I say immoral, I am not talking about watching porn.

As I said I realize I can not by everything American, so please don't waste our time going down a list. But guns are one thing you can buy American. I get it if you want some high end foreign rifle, but are talking budget guns. In my opinion there are alot of American guns for $500 that will do just fine. I do not consider them to be POS, as you say. I am not even sure how you come with such a low rating. Most rifles under a certain price range have nuicances that we do no like, maybe they all do, depending on who you ask.


I do have a CZ over and under, beacuse I wanted a ultralight, and I wasn't seeing that in the price range I was looking at.J Though I tend to grab my Mosberg. I get buying foreign if it fits your need, and nothing else does here. But a bolt action rifle?

Zerk =

I've done enough research on the Remington trigger issue and read enough court documents to believe Remington put profits over customer safety. They are not the first company to do so nor will they be the last. Choose not to believe that if you wish. For the record I currently own three Remington long guns (M700, M700M, 870) and had another M700 I sent down the road to fund an AR.

Most of the people responsible for Japan's actions in China and the Pacific are long dead. The current generations are far removed from the culture that was responsible for those actions. If you want to hold the current generations responsible you must also hold yourself responsible for American slavery. "Separate but equal" never was equal and wasn't that long ago. I'm old enough to remember it.

As to American guns, most of mine are. High Standard. Kimber. Ruger. Savage. Marlin. Remington. Ithaca. Aero. Kimber. S&W. Thompson Center. Rock River. Pioneer (Stevens). Iver Johnson. My Browning Buckmark and BDM. Some were acquired used, some new, one built from parts. My 950B Beretta is Italian. My Browning rifles are Japanese. My Interams is a Yugoslavia action with an American trigger, barrel and stock. But I don't really care where they were made - what I cared about was the quality and value at the time of purchase, whether buying complete rifles or parts.

Like you, I try to support American manufacturers. When the quality and value isn't there, I am happy to look at foreign made. Yes, even for rifles. Most of my rifles cost me under $500, including those purchased new. A small fraction cost more but are no better, so I agree there are a lot of $500 American guns "that will do just fine", at least from a safety/reliability/accuracy/functionality standpoint, which is my primary concern. Dad gave me his Ruger American before he passed away. In spite of everything I tried, it failed the accuracy test and went down the road - a $0 rifle that didn't make the grade.

If I was in the market for a new rifle and a foreign made rifle best suited my needs, it would get the nod. With no apologies to anyone.

As I already said, slavery is further generations removed from US, and we did not believe them to be humans like us. With Japan, it was not as long ago. I am not aware if Japan viewed other asians countries as sub human.

Do companies make profits a priority. Sure

Curious you a liberal?

I am curious what you find sub par about American Ruger, Savages, ect?

You do realize the Watherbies are still an evil American capitialist company, they are just manufacturing in Japan.

CZ 527 OR 550 used, single set triggers, hammer forged barrels, accurate.....................buntingmiester

Vanguard or Howa by a mile.

Remington 700 from Wal-Mart would be my choice #2.




Dave

Slavery per se is long behind us. Racial bias is not. As I said, "separate but equal", which was anything but, was in effect long after WWII was over. The current generation of Japanese are no more responsible for what happened in WWII than you are for what the Nazi's did to the Jews. Oh, that was a European culture thing, wasn't it?

Me a liberal? Not in this lifetime. Libertarian/conservative, yes.

I am not driving a BMW either. But as a percentage, looking a Germans compared to Europe, and African and Asian countries view morality, compared to ours

Asain, African, and Middle Eatern countries are kill each other, with guise of other person being a sub species or no equal. Rape, killing, murder, and kidnap, is just the way life is for them.

Zerk. Imo if you are willing to boycott japanese made products because of deeds that imperial army did back in world war 2 you should also do so with US made products. Because of all pointless armed conflicts US has been part of after WW2. Otherwise you are just hypocritical. That is my opinion.

Today Japan has really respectable and hard working culture that should not be judged because of deeds they did years ago.

I dont mean to be offensive but my writing may be a bit rough because english is not my native language.

Zerk, Pay attention and do some background research about the Finn's trials and tribulations over the just the last 125 years, then re read Roinaa's post with that history in mind...and see if you are being more than a little over zealous in boycotting countries products because of their past transgressions.

FWIW I spent 6 years working for an American company that was owned jointly by a Nokia div and another European based company. That partnership has since ceased to exist. However in 1984 on a plant tour I got the short indoctrination course of the abuses of other countries on Finland and came away with an overwhelming level of respect and admiration for the Finn's dogged determination to excellence in manufacturing, education, the only country in history to repay the US's loans after WWII, loss of a 40K wide strip of land the length of the country and a warm water port on the Baltic to the Russians who declared war on Finland in 1946 simply to grab physical manufactiring assets and land, Nokia Corp's enginerring and techological innovations from cutting edge computer innovation and technology, the largest mfg'er of tungsten tie studs in the world, a major ship building industry, building the Aswan HIgh Dam in Egypt, to inflicting the highest enemy kill count by a single shooter in WW II or maybe in history... on and on and on. For a country about the size and population of Oklahoma, they can Walk Tall with Pride IMO.

One of the most moving things I have ever witnessed anywhere, was testimony by an Old Gentlman about his feelings towards his enemies and occurred at the end of a Company sponsered moose hunt in 1984. We were allowed to take a box of ammo anytime we got off the company bus at the Hunt's jump off site and this really Old Gentleman was our "greeter", who would stop us to say good morning and if he'd seen one of us pick up a box of ammo & leave the empty carton in the open case behind the driver as directed, would reach into our pocket where the loose ammo was, jabber in Finnish with a super serious look on his face for a few seconds holding the round of ammo up in front of our faces and then grin and drop it in our shirt pocket, and go to the next person. At the end of the several days long hunt, the Hunters and the Hunt Club members who'd served as our guides, beaters & drivers and handlers gathered on the side of the road to exchange goodbye's and thank you's for the wonderful experience...and anytime there are more than 2 Scot's or Finn's or even American's together a bottle or two of elixer will appear. Lots of short speech's later as we began to break up to leave, an American from my company asked our corporate host The Question...who is this Old Gentleman and what's deal about the round of ammo in the shirt pocket thingy all about.

Our Host asked who? and the Old Man stepped forward his face wet with the sudden tears...they talked for a moment and both men began to shed tears, enough tears to run off their faces. It was explained that the Old Man was in his late 80's and had fought the German's twice and lost ...but they went home after the war, leaving Finland with no building having more than 2 stones on top of each other north of Helsinki. Fought the Russians twice and lost, and they looted Finland of every peice of manfacturing equipment they could get on a truck or ship , even stealing the land that his family had owned for hundreds of year and still lived behind the New Russian Border where he could not see his aged children and their granchildren ever again ....and he only lived each day to fight those enemies again, so he kept a round of ammo out of every box he opened to do it with...we all cried for him ...40-50 strangers felt the Moment of Truth in that Old Man's voice even though we could not understand his language.

On our last full day in Finland our large party of international guests, was taken to a famous resteurant in Helsinki, The Russian Tea Room I think it was called, and again I witnessed the Finn's spur of the moment Honoring of an otherwise unknown Hero, a Hungarian refugee who'd immigrated at an early age to England is all we knew about him but had thought it strange that he had a Finnish Military Officer "keeper" at all times who had participated in the Hunt too whenever the faux Brit was out of the hotel's building near the plant some distance up country from Helsinki. As we were leaving The Tea Room, ALL of the Staff lined up and respectfully but heartily applauded our refugee Brit as he walked by...it seems that at the age of 12 as a boy in Budapest, he had "killed" 3 Russian tanks singlehandedly with nothing but molotov cocktails and escaped,,,and Russians has already made several attempts on his life in England.

Again of all the people who could feel a reason to boycott another country's product's IMO the Finns legitimently have Cause but I did not see it then or now...and my former Finnish employer had/has many business operations on both sides of the Russian border.

Zerk, boycott who you want to, that's your right as an American, but understand why and how th World Economy today works, and Boycott those countries that deserve it for what they are doing TODAY...and Russia is at the top of MY LIST.
Ron

No worries, your English is much better than Zerk's.

I am not boycotting any country. I weight it in purchase deciscion. If I can buy an American product I can. When I can't I try to buy that is not enemy of ours, which I consider China. I look at the possible options and buy the best one.

There are alot more American products then people think. In the case of cheap guns, I am not even sure why we are having this discussion.

Instead of reading an entire thread...

simple answer, is Howas are at Sportsman's Warehouse for $379 if you like the Hogue Rubber stock...

otherwise then the deal from Whittakers on them...

recently ordered one from Darrik for a friend...

like $345 into the hands of the local FFL gunshop...

But no matter if I have to choice between a country that gives rainbows to orphans, and American, I choose American. I work and live in America, and do it for selfish reasons. It is an investment into myself. Sad more people don't realize this.

Savage if you must have new...lot's of good bargains out there used, I still consider a used M98 sporter to be about the best budget rifle going. Find them all day in your price range(sure can't build them for that).

OK back to budget rifles. I had a gift card and the store had a sale and tc had a rebate so this weekend I bought a tc compass for 189 bucks. Will let you know it does. I dismissed them based on looks and price until I held one and examined closer, it's basically a venture with a cheaper stock and better magazine. Cheap looking stock but it's stiff and fits me. Rotary mag that holds 5 and is better designed than the American from ruger. Crisp trigger designed like the old winchesters. A real recoil pad. Threaded for suppressor, 3 lug bolt, 5r rifling for those of you who like that.

Shaking my head. 189 bucks for any rifle is pretty good but this one could be dropped into a nice walnut stock and most would think it's a 700 dollar gun. Nice design and accidental good timing on my part.

Like a lot of us, I can afford a 600 dollar rifle but I have a couple customs and I keep them and occasionally try a new toy out or buy a truck gun or want a project.

Oh. And it's guaranteed to shoot into an inch. Also has a 3 position safety like a winchester.

mjbgalt, is that a lefty action?

Nope, I don't think they make anything lefty. ..maybe check their website