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#12204561 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
Joined: Jan 2007
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Savuti Offline
Campfire Ranger
Savuti  Offline
Campfire Ranger

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,723
Collier Co. Florida
Greg, thank you, once again.

Pete


There is nothing made by man,
which cannot be broken by woman.
CMG 300 BP

#12204865 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 99
Mountain10mm Offline
Member
Mountain10mm  Offline
Member

Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 99
Colorado
Nothing like bad publicity to get you publicity. Seems like Dave went off on a rant and now it's everywhere. I can say I've never met him, nor do I have anything against him, but I have a different take on the instructor/training situation. For the record, I have an NRA pistol instructor cert (almost a joke to get) and shot competitively for 25 years (not a joke). I've never taught a formal class though - nor is it a goal of mine.

First, three things have to be noted. One is defensive training appropriate for a potentially life threatening situation using a handgun. Two, the business of firearms and shooting. Third, shooting skill. They overlap, but not always. It sounds to me like Dave is saying some instructors in the second category and maybe a little of the third category are promoting training for the first category. I concur, that could be an issue. If someone genuinely wants to learn about personal defense with a handgun, it's best to find a experts (plural) in that area - and it's easier said than done. I highly suggest one of those instructors in the defensive pistol class be an attorney - which to my knowledge Dave is not.

In the second category, WTFC? That's who the f*** cares? Not that I'm into it, but if someone wants to pay an "instructor" to shoot tannerite targets with a mini gun while hanging upside down from a helicopter and completely dressed in tacticool garb - great. Have at it. Might be fun, and there's nothing wrong with that. More power to the instructor for capitalizing on a business opportunity. The tactical stuff isn't my style, but it's not different than the wanna-be Harley warriors donning leather chaps and vests on the weekends. Again, not my type, but have at it and kudos to the guys making money at it.

Finally the last category - which is a little closer to me personally. In my experience, and this is just my personal experience, the shooters in the first two categories aren't that good - in the true definition of shooting skill and marksmanship. It's more of did you stop the threat, did you hit the tannerite, can you shoot effectively while moving, etc. Not that those aren't are super valuable skills for their respective categories, but fast, clean, precise, accurate shooting generally doesn't happen in either of the first two. It's the experts in 3-gun, USPSA, IDPA, steel challenge, Camp Perry, Bullseye, etc. that get the nod for the last category.

Caveat emptor. There are no rigid checks and balances as to exactly what category an instructor's class fits. It's up to the student to decide the type of training and research the appropriate method of seeking that training themselves. Negatively slamming your business competition in an emotional rant though only comes across as childish, desperate, demeaning, and even incompetent.

#12204906 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Mountain10mm]  
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Posts: 59,608
deflave Offline
Campfire Oracle
deflave  Offline
Campfire Oracle

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 59,608
There have been ass holes and charlatan's in the firearms business for a long, long, long time.

It's hardly something new.




Dave

#12204916 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Mountain10mm]  
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,338
lvmiker Online content
Campfire Ranger
lvmiker  Online Content
Campfire Ranger

Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,338
las vegas, Nv.
Competitive shooting is excellent for mastering the mechanics of accuracy, and gun handling w/ the pressure of performing in front of your peers. It does nothing to address the key elements of positive target identification/discrimination that are essential in a defensive context. I can shoot targets faster than I can effectively discriminate bad guys from good and will a pass through strike an innocent.

Speed must be moderated by perfect target ID and absolutely not missing. This goal takes a lot of work and would help a seeker find a good teacher.


mike r


Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better

Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
#12204972 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Mannlicher]  
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 89,449
Steelhead Offline
Campfire Oracle
Steelhead  Offline
Campfire Oracle

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 89,449
Azerbaijan
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
Originally Posted by Steelhead
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
who is Mannlicher, and why should ANYONE care what he thinks?



+1

you are truly a royal phuggup Scott. laughing.



who is Mannlicher and why should ANYONE care what he thinks?


"When I was a kid I thought that quicksand was going to be a much bigger problem than it is."
Alpha

#12204974 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: deflave]  
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 89,449
Steelhead Offline
Campfire Oracle
Steelhead  Offline
Campfire Oracle

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 89,449
Azerbaijan
Originally Posted by deflave
There have been ass holes and charlatan's in the firearms business for a long, long, long time.

It's hardly something new.




Dave


And a few of the charlatan's have their nuts licked. The 'Fire is a perfect example.


"When I was a kid I thought that quicksand was going to be a much bigger problem than it is."
#12205026 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,213
MadMooner Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
MadMooner  Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 14,213
Hooter Hollow, PNW
I wonder if I can get me some 5.11's in this print? Nobody wants to take a roundhouse from these bad boys!!!



Deep State Operative and Fluoride sales representative...........
#12205091 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Bluedreaux]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 82,032
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle
The_Real_Hawkeye  Offline
Campfire Oracle

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 82,032
Northern Florida
Originally Posted by Bluedreaux
The biggest problem that I've identified in the training industry is that so few instructors understand how to teach, and IMO that's because so few of them really know what they're doing in the first place.

Running shooters though drills is not the same as teaching people to shoot, but it's a lot easier.

The best class I've ever taken was taught by a total dick of a guy in raggedy clothes who shouted obscenities and mocked me for two days. But he knew how to shoot and how to diagnose shooting problems like no one else I've ever met.

You're welcome. You were a hard student to teach.


"It’s the usual Christophobic fifth column rooting for the Islamization of the West." - Ann Coulter
#12205115 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: MadMooner]  
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 82,032
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle
The_Real_Hawkeye  Offline
Campfire Oracle

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Posts: 82,032
Northern Florida
Originally Posted by MadMooner
I wonder if I can get me some 5.11's in this print? Nobody wants to take a roundhouse from these bad boys!!!



Great scene from a hilarious movie.

If you like that, you need to watch The Foot Fist Way:



"It’s the usual Christophobic fifth column rooting for the Islamization of the West." - Ann Coulter
#12205548 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Steelhead]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 59,608
deflave Offline
Campfire Oracle
deflave  Offline
Campfire Oracle

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 59,608
Originally Posted by Steelhead
Originally Posted by deflave
There have been ass holes and charlatan's in the firearms business for a long, long, long time.

It's hardly something new.




Dave


And a few of the charlatan's have their nuts licked. The 'Fire is a perfect example.


Fact.



Dave

Bravo

#12205640 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 57,106
Mannlicher Offline
Campfire Oracle
Mannlicher  Offline
Campfire Oracle

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 57,106
N. Central Florida, and Miami
Originally Posted by gmoats
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
who is Dave Spaulding, and why should I care what he thinks?

…..if you don't know, then you shouldn't care.

frankly I don't. I'll leave this one to the experts like you. smile


Sam......

#12205960 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Mannlicher]  
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,376
gmoats Offline
Campfire Regular
gmoats  Offline
Campfire Regular

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,376
Wyoming
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
Originally Posted by gmoats
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
who is Dave Spaulding, and why should I care what he thinks?

…..if you don't know, then you shouldn't care.

frankly I don't. I'll leave this one to the experts like you. smile

…there was nothing "snarky" meant in my comment. My "expertise" or lack thereof is irrelevant---sorry if my comment offended you.


The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
#12206030 - 08/13/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: Mannlicher]  
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 59,608
deflave Offline
Campfire Oracle
deflave  Offline
Campfire Oracle

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 59,608
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
Originally Posted by gmoats
Originally Posted by Mannlicher
who is Dave Spaulding, and why should I care what he thinks?

…..if you don't know, then you shouldn't care.

frankly I don't. I'll leave this one to the experts like you. smile


Another brilliant Mannlicher post.

Just stops in to state he doesn't know WTF anybody is talking about and wouldn't care if he did.




Clark

#12206874 - 08/14/17 Re: Dave Spaulding's comments on trainers [Re: gmoats]  
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 57,106
Mannlicher Offline
Campfire Oracle
Mannlicher  Offline
Campfire Oracle

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 57,106
N. Central Florida, and Miami
gmoats
Quote

…there was nothing "snarky" meant in my comment. My "expertise" or lack thereof is irrelevant---sorry if my comment offended you.


not offended at all, but your reply is more than fair. Thanks.


Sam......

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