Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa ENOUGH CALIBER

Given the "popularity" of killing, stopping, enough power etc, threads, I thought to start one here and hopefully avoid the freak show and the usual suspects with this example: Let's say you just dropped large coin on a deposit for Lord Derby Eland in the CAR. BIG COIN. You have just about every caliber/rifle available in your arsenal. So, do you take the "only shot placement/bullet construction" matters angle and take your 243 or whatever "AI" or your 375 H&H with (my choices) 270gr Barnes Triple Shocks, Swift AFrame ? Fire away....

PS: My philosophy:
In my experience, which is of course limited, all else being equal - and by that I mean equal bullet performance and shot placement, and non-CNS hits - bigger diameter bullets at higher velocities kill faster.

I would take a .375 H&H and use the 270 gr Swift A-Frame. The .375 would break both shoulders and be better for the frontal or quartering angle shots. In other words,the .375 would be better for the less than perfect shots that may arise when hunting.

That would finally give my .375 H&H Model 70 something worthwhile to do!

I've got a bunch of 300 gr Nosler Partitions on hand that shoot well, so I'd use them.

ZERO experience hunting in Africa, but that's what I'd grab from my gun safe.

Regards, Guy

I'd be more concerned about the platform and the bullet than I would be the caliber, within reason.

Id guess 243 would certainly work, but I'd be more inclined to 270/280, 30/06, or even 338 WM type rounds. Maybe a 9.3 or 375 if it was in a special rifle I had to take.

I'd go 9.3x62 and 286TSX on a Win 70, 338-06 and a 225 TSX on custom 98 Mannlicher, or 338WM and 250 NP on a Win 70.

Good Bullet weight, moderate caliber size at moderate velocity just works

Trapr

375 H&H. Only change I would consider is the bullet - 300 grain North Fork would be my choice, given the quarry and setting.

Of separate concern: Has the CAR calmed down some? It's been spooky there recently.

Take the .375, 270 gr. Barnes TSXes, game over......

Another vote for the .375, and I like swift A-Frames mucho.....

CAR is still an active war zone. I used a .375 for LDE in Cameroon because savannah buffalo was also on license and I wanted something suitable for both( although LDE are as large as the buffalo, they don't try to kill you if a dense cover follow up is necessary). As it turned out, I got the buff and not the eland. As an aside, I used a .338WM to take an eland in RSA- the 230 gr Failsafe broke both shoulders and lodges under the offside skin. It's plenty of power, IMHO.....

I always err on the side of bullet weight, diameter, momentum and penetration, too many things can happen to only rely on surgical placement.

LOL, I have been repeatedly denied a "Stunt Shooter" license ;]

As much as a hunt cost and the time invested makes me want to have more than just enough gun, but one that I can shoot well, have all the confidence in.

That gun, in this case, would be my NH M-70 SS .375 H&H. It's chopped, flutted with NECG irons and a Victory 1.5-6x42 glass. It's slick and it shoots. I'd work up some good loads and go hunting.

DF

You bet DF, 270 gr TSX's, 300 gr NPT's or SAF's wont let a man down if placed correctly.

Haven't done a vast amount of eland hunting, but have done enough in three countries to know they're not hard to kill, but a really big one requires plenty of penetration, both on bone and angling shots. The hunting also often involves long tracking, with the shot finally coming at an alarmed eland, heading the other way. I would personally choose a relatively lightweight rifle in any medium-bore cartridge from the .338 Winchester up with monolithic bullets, or near-monolithic bullets like the North Fork. Such bullets penetrate noticeably deeper than wider-expanding lead-cores like the A-Frame and Woodleigh, no matter how much weight the lead-cores retain.

The reason for the lightweight rifle isn't just carrying it on a long track, but the higher likelihood of having it in your hands, and then getting the rifle up and aimed quickly, when the chance comes--which may be brief. If I had the chance to go right now would probably pick my 8-pound 9.3x62 with 286-grain TSX's, or possibly 286 North Forks.

Thanks for that real world experience MD, I'm thinking hard about the 275 gr old style Bitterroot Bonded Cores at 2700 fps in a pre-64 375 H&H using a fast 1.5-5 Leupold.

The Bitterroots, like Woodleighs, didn't penetrate super-deeply because, again, they expanded widely.

Bob Hagel explained that in his book, GAME LOADS AND PRACTICAL BALLISTICS, which probably made more hunters aware of the advantages of controlled-expansion bullets than any other single source. It was published in 1978, back when Bitterroots and Nosler Partitions were the only reasonably available premium bullets in America, and Hagel had done considerable testing of both bullets in media and big game. He firmly stated Partitions would out-penetrate Bitterroots of the same weight and caliber, because Partitions opened into a narrower mushroom.

In fact, I'd rather use 286 Partitions when desiring deep penetration from my 9.3x62 than 250 TSX's. Heavier, larger-caliber Partitions are designed to retain at least 75% of their weight, even if they lose all the front core, and usually retain 85-90%. As a result 286 Partitions penetrate somewhere between the depth of 250 and 286 TSX's.

Thanks for that too, it's filed in the load workup memory banks.

I have never shot an Eland but just getting back from my 3rd plains game hunt, and were I to have booked your hunt, I would say 286 TSX in a 9.3, 250 TSX in. .338 or 300 TSX in a .375. I shot an Oryx with a 180 TTSX on a moderate quartering shot and the bullet did not reach the lungs. My dad made a similar shot on a 120-pound Blesbok with no exit (both left side which are tougher on penetration because of having to go through dry grass in stomach). Most broadside shots I have seen on Oryx and Wildebeast with Barnes bullets have not exited, probably because of robust muscle structure and 3/4" hide over the shoulders. I am starting to see why PHs preach tough bullets in really heavy weights.

To further clarify, I personally would go 300 grains in .375 and choose Barnes over a Swift.

I have a couple of 404s that handle well and that I've carried quite a bit. I'd choose one of these - probably the one with a synthetic stock given the tropical condition - and use 400 grain Swift A-frames.

I acknowledge MD's experience and advice, but I've used that bullet at a bit over 2400 fps on a couple of tough African animals and have had very deep penetration from frontal and angling shots.

Yep, at lower velocities A-Frames typically don't open up as widely, so penetrate deeper.

The eland I shot in Zimbabwe went down immediately with a 300 grain .375 TSX. Seems like a good choice to me, based on my one experience with eland. My experience also mirrors Mule Deer's comments about long tracking. A rifle that's a bit lighter than my CZ 550 would be nice for extended tracking. On the other hand, the extra weight does reduce recoil and makes a .375 easier to shoot and hit with, at least for me. The nice thing about a .375 is that it can handle nearly anything you might encounter, and in Africa you never know what that might be.

My one and only eland dropped to an original Barnes X via my FN Mauser 9.3x62 in 2002. A pile of other critters did the same. Today it would be a toss up between that rifle and my tweaked SS M70 375 H&H pushing the 270 gr TSX. I took the latter on an unsuccessful SE Alaska brown bear hunt last year with extreme confidence.

I'd use my 300 H&H with a 220 grain Partition.
or my 9.3X62 with a 286 gr Partition.
or my 9.3X74R with a 286 gr Partition.
or my 375H&H with a 300 grain Partition.

Might just draw straws.

A CAR Lord Derby Eland is truly an epic hunt. I would take one of my Win M70 375 and chop it, restock it and make it as light as possible. Stoke it with A-Frames and be done with it. There are considerable lion in the CAR Savannah. No gun bearer is lugging my rifle.

A 375 H&H should be enough.

Great thread-so far. Gunner, loved your post!

Good to know in that I ended up with a few hundred .404 A Frames. I will admit to not having used that bullet because of not being a fan of the design. The bulging lower jacket never has seemed like a good idea to me but nice to know they work in .404. I run my .404 about 2250 so maybe I should shoot something with them to see how they penetrate.

This one's already been chopped and flutted. With the Victory 1.5-6x42 it's pushing 9#'s all up. If I swapped to the VX-3 1.5-5x20 it would be a little over 8 1/2 pounds, which is about as light as I'd want a .375 H&H. I generally don't like Tupperware, but have gotten used to this one, like the way it handles and it's tough. In this configuration, balance is good, handling is quick and like most M-70's, it's a shooter.

DF

Desert: In my experience, bulging lower jacket only occurs at really high velocities. Nothing to worry about in a 404 Jeffery, 416 Ruger (400 grain) or 338 win mag (250 grain).

This. While I'm a big fan of the .30-'06, a wounded Lord Derby Eland isn't something I'd want to follow up with it. Not to mention they live in places with big, ugly stuff hanging around everywhere.

Ed

Any of what I"ve seen would be plenty IMO. I don't have a lot of experience with eland but my buddy just took an old Cape eland in South Africa with my 28 Nosler and 160AB. He shot him at 250 yds quartering away and the bullet was found on the exit side just under the hide.

I had a similar experience at about 200 yds, broadside in RSA with my eland. However, the LD eland tends to offer fleeting shots as they disappear into the bush. Many shots will require significant penetration and tracking is best avoided. YMMV

Going across the pond to the Dark Continent is expensive. Both in terms of time and money.
I adhere to the KISS principle. As such, I'd take my .375 H&H stoked with 300gr. TBBC (as that's what it prefers and previously proven effective for me in Zim).

For me, I say screw CAR and forget Lord Derby Eland. If I'm going to drop that kind of coin, I'm going to spend a bit more and go after Bongo!

I haven't shot an Eland but have shot a few moose and my 375 H&H 300 grain Partitions. No problems.

At present the only safe hunting for both bongo and LDE is Cameroon. CAR has been closed for several years. And there is very little difference in cost....both expensive.

About 40 large/

Jorge, you wouldn't take you Merkel double? :-)

or a 700...

Yes, great thread on your part Jorge, I'll just try to keep my clutter down.

I've taken eland myself, used a 375 with 300gr AFrames and I was glad I did...wrote this about ten years ago:
MY MOST MEMORABLE HUNT

“Let’s get Big John turned into the wind, ring up twenty five knots and notify the Captain we will be ready to launch the first strike in fifteen minutes….” I was sitting in the Captain’s chair as the duty Command Duty Officer (Underway) awaiting the CO’s return from a meeting with the Admiral commanding our strike group as we prepared to launch the first strike from the USS John F Kennedy (CV 67) against Taliban forces in Afghanistan as part of Operation Enduring Freedom. It was hard to imagine that just a month ago, September 11th, 2001, that I was in the middle of Zimbabwe when we heard over the BBC the tragedy that had befallen our country. It just didn’t seem real….

All of a sudden as was their custom, the trackers froze and slowly signaled to my PH, John Sharp to come forward with his binoculars. The two feeding eland bulls were positioned in a clump of scrub mopane and acacia trees about two hundred yards directly ahead of us. John, in his usually precise manner motioned to slowly move up at take a look. “He’s over there on the left, he hissed, about 175 yards. His shoulder is between those two trees, can you see him?” I nodded and quickly got up on the shooting sticks and centered the heavy duplex crosshairs on what looked like the perfect shoulder shot….
The 31st day of August 2001 finally arrived and after an early rise at my home in Orange Park, Florida and the seemingly interminable flights, connections and layovers, my first morning in Africa was finally here and an adventure I anticipated since childhood. Only my desire to be a naval aviator flying jets off aircraft carriers attained greater intensity, but after twenty-two years in Naval Aviation, I was ready for Africa! . After much research I decided to go with one of the legends of the game, Professional Hunter John Sharp out of Bulawayo, Zimbabwe. I booked a twelve-day Plains Game hunt with John after being thoroughly impressed with his credentials and personality at the SCI Convention in Las Vegas.
After a fascinating drive from Bulawayo, (it’s not often that one gets treated to herds of impala, kudu, impala and even giraffes crossing the four lane asphalt road out of Bulawayo), we arrived at camp. We were hunting on the Malangani Conservancy, a 155,000 plus acre enclave in southeastern Zimbabwe and today part of the Bubyee Conservancy. The habitat in this region is near perfect for all plains game including buffalo, and leopards are also abundant. John runs a tight, glass-smooth operation there, with virtually zero poaching and incursion from the plague of “Mugabe’s “War Veterans” that ravaged and destroyed many farms in the area. Game was plentiful, especially Kudu, where I was fortunate to bag a 58 3/4”bull on the eigth day of the hunt after passing up what I considered over twenty “shootable” specimens.


Camp Malangani, on the shores of a huge lake of the same name, consists of a series of cottages clustered around a thatched, open area dining facility, a beautiful pool and other supporting structures like skinning sheds, vehicle storage areas and staff dwellings. Two huge Daimler-Benz generators provide electrical sufficiency for lighting and other duties, including the pumping of water to strategically located water reservoirs throughout the Conservancy, serving in the office of supplemental water during times of drought. Accommodations were nothing short of luxurious and the service provided by his staff superb. My chalet was positioned on the shore of the lake, which incidentally is full of “good ol” American Stripped Bass, faced west, just a short distance from the main dining area and the traditional fire pit. Every evening prior to and after dinner and under the Southern Cross, we would plan the next day’s hunt around the glow of the fire pit, a Castle Beer and a good cigar in hand. I’m here to tell you that the taste of eland and indeed all the African animals on the menu including zebra, exceeded all of my expectations, with the eland surpassing any cut of beef I had previously tasted. It was truly a dream come true to fall asleep in my comfortable bed in the coolness of the African night and to the sounds of Africa and among the usual racket of insects, but unquestionably, the highlight of my first evening in the African bush were the sounds of literally dozens of animals including eland, zebra, kudu, wildebeest and impala, as they diligently fed on the lush green grasses around my cottage, fed by the waters of Malangani lake. Like a youngster furtively slithering out of bed to catch a glimpse of Santa Claus on Christmas eve, I slowly padded my way to the screen mesh window to catch a glimpse of this truly magnificent spectacle that I often-times read in books and magazines, only now I was doing it for real.
The eland was the biggest trophy on the menu and my second priority after the kudu, proved to be the most difficult to collect. I bagged my kudu on the 8th day, after previously collecting a large zebra stallion, a good representative Tsesebee and a beautiful twenty-two inch impala ram during the first week. On that day, we had been driving along a sandy dry river bed looking for baboons, when this beautiful, tightly curled bull, peered down at us from the edge of the river’s embankment before quickly swapping ends and disappearing over the dry river’s bank. That’s the way hunting in Africa goes, when you are looking and expecting to find a particular trophy, she surprises you with something completely different, in this case a magnificent kudu bull. After a short and textbook-tracking job lasting twenty minutes, he offered a perfect broadside shot at 125 yards and a 300gr 375 through the shoulder paid off with a magnificent 58 3/4” bull that stands as my finest African trophy.

We now concentrated on eland in earnest, with only warthog and bushbuck remaining on my “to do” list. During the course of the previous eight days we had seen quite a few herds of the huge antelope, but unfortunately either we were out of position, on spoor for another animal, or there were just no shootable mature bulls in the herd.
When it comes to their elusiveness, their ability to smell danger that launches them on their signature “galloping sprints”, eland can be quite challenging. If and when they slow down to a walk, and if you are still in range, your best efforts can again be thwarted by shifting wind currents or the alarm shriek of the ubiquitous “Go Away!” bird, the Grey Lourie (Corythaixoides concolor).
Hunting eland is a demanding but rewarding task, requiring total concentration and the presence of mind to take advantage of a situation requiring an instant snap shot at a fleeting giant as he melts into the African bush. Eland do not have a particularly tough reputation for absorbing hits and will drop quickly to a reasonably well-placed shot from an adequate caliber like any of the 300s, but that morning I was carrying my Winchester Model 70 in 375 H&H, a cartridge that in my view just seems to fit the whole African experience and a good choice for eland.
I find the eland a fascinating animal. A mature male sports a noticeable “blue-jean” colored dewlap, a distinct shoulder hump, and black-reddish tufted hair on the top of his head, with spiral horn configuration. Bulls measuring over thirty inches in length are considered very good, and anything in excess of thirty-four is outstanding. His glossy tan and striped coat does indeed round out its attributes, making for a beautiful trophy and as I alluded to previously, I had often heard and had now experienced stories on the quality of the meat these huge ruminants were famous for. Although good-natured to the point of being docile, like any wild animal they can be extremely dangerous when wounded and cornered, especially one weighing over a ton.
Eland spooring can be readily identified by their bovine shaped tracks and droppings and also by the singular habit of breaking branches with their horns to access green leaves. I was thoroughly amazed at the ability of John’s head tracker of seventeen years, Isaac to determine how recently eland passed through an area. Tracking prey on their terms with only the trackers skill, your PH’s ability to assess trophy quality and your individual prowess to quickly and accurately “throw down” and squeeze off a round in mere seconds, is hunting in its purest form.
That morning we had set out to explore some eland spoor Issac had spotted the previous evening and with our trackers Isaac & Kevin standing in the back of the Toyota “Bakkie” to better spot game, we began driving the interminable dirt trails cris-crossing the Conservancy, an efficient tactic to locate game. After two hours into the morning hunt, Isaac started tapping the Toyota’s roof, signaling John to stop. He spied a couple of good bulls traveling together and crossing into a nearby thicket. I quickly jumped out of the truck, chambered a round, and the hunt was on as we took up the spoor.
The spooring was going well, as Isaac and Kevin kept a stealthy but deliberate pace on the constantly moving bulls. The spoor was obvious even to this amateur; the broken branches from their horns were numerous along the circuitous route they had taken since the stalk began.
We were about two hundred yards away, when the bulls paused to feed and with the wind in our favor, John had a good opportunity to assess both bulls. “Take the one on the left he quipped, so I snicked off the safety and with my rifle steady on the shooting sticks, the big 375 boomed. I came off recoil and quickly reloaded. I could see that he was down on his hindquarters with Isaac, who is usually calm, anxiously communicating in Shona that I had “shot him in the back!” Just as fast, I placed the crosshairs on the bull’s neck and gave him another 300-grain pill and he was down for good. John and the lads were elated. I however, was not. I could have potentially lost my best trophy and only by chance—and the 375’s heavy projectile that I was able to anchor the huge animal. Quite simply, I aimed for what I thought was his shoulder when in fact it was the animal’s hindquarter. The second bull was halfway hidden but in close proximity thereby presenting a confusing sight picture. Another couple of inches either way and I could have at best had a long tracking job ahead of us or at worst, lost him altogether. On reflection, I realized that I had changed my procedures that on previous shots, I had always asked John “Which way is he facing and how far is he?” In my haste and excitement, I had forgotten to do so and could have cost me big. Carefully we approached the downed bull but he was down for the count. Finally, I was able to enjoy this great trophy. He was a magnificent, old specimen with perfectly symmetrical spiral horns, measuring 34 ½ inches. As always, I stayed with the kill while John and the lads went for the Land Cruiser some three miles away. I settled myself against a small tree, flipped open a bottle of Coke and topped off the day with a fine Macanudo. I hunted for four more days, rounding out my safari by taking a gorgeous impala and a very nice wildebeest, but the eland remains my favorite hunt of that trip. It was done the real way, “walking it up” as the locals say and a day I will long remember. Africa has another disciple and deer hunting back home will never be the same. Now it’s back to sea duty and naval aviation, but the “spirit of the hunt” will remain with me, only this time it’ll be in the “Gulf”, hunting an entirely different and more dangerous animal.


EQUIPMENT SIDEBAR
I’m a firm believer in redundancy and plan accordingly. For this hunt I took to rifles and either one could fill the bill for the animals on my trophy list. A Winchester Model 70 Super Express in 375 H&H topped with a Leupold 1.75X6X32mm heavy duplex reticle and hand loaded 300gr Swift A Frames. (As you can see in the photograph the Swifts performed flawlessly with virtually 100% weight retention, near perfect mushrooming and superb penetration. From left to right they were recovered from Zebra, wildebeest and eland while the lat one on the right is a 180gr Hornady Interlock from an impala).

My other rifle is also a proven African performer a Weatherby MKV Deluxe with a Zeiss Diavari 3x9X36 variable and factory Weatherby ammo. Optics also included Cabelas’Alaskan Guide 8X42 binoculars
You can see the blood trail on the ham, where I busted the pelvic girdle with the first shot. Ergo, large caliber saved my ass...

Thanks for posting the story, and pics. Very nice description of the dewlap on the eland being 'blue jean' in color. Does John still hunt this area, or has the mugabe crowd overrun it now?

I'd love to have some eland steaks to throw on the grill tonight!

It's now part of the Bubye Conservancy. Yes the steaks were great that night!

Nice read Jorge. Eland steaks are my favorite.

I've been contemplating going "grocery shopping" here in Texas and slaying an Eland for the freezer, but concerned with the difference in diet if they would taste the same.

Thanks Jorge - great story of your hunt. I enjoyed!

Regards, Guy

Jorge, you make a great case for the .375 H&H. It's a classic and for a reason.

DF

Take a .375 with 300gr quality bullets and get over all the angst. I have shot everything from elephant down to red duiker with it and no complaints. You can over think and over analyze anything and this thread proves it....you don't need to hand load or chronograph anything. Factory ammo kills 10 times as much as handloads all over the world. Now let the flaming begin. If your .375 load isn't traveling at 2478fps instead of 2368 fps it won't kill anything. What a joke.

Careful with the logic, J...

Of course, you're right. But this IS the Fire...

And, a belated welcome to you.

DF

Great animal Jorge, I'll hopefully drill one soon and get to try those Eland steaks, can't wait.

Being that an eland is the size of an Alaskan moose, I'd be a bit hesitant to purposefully go after one with a .243 regardless of which bullet I used...and I say that as a stout and devoted supporter of .22 CFs on deer; even big mule deer.

I'd start to feel comfortable with a stout 130 grain .277" bullet, but would take a .300 Mag of some sort in your hypothetical situation. As for a bullet, I'd love to whack one with a 200 grain original Speer grand slam (the best bullet ever made for game IMO), but an A-Frame, accubond, Interbond, TBBC or even a partition would be where I would really start to feel comfortable.

What is a fast Leupold scope? And 2700fps seems a bit fast. Is Bitterroot still in business?

Fast, as in quick bracketing of animals at 1.5 power, and no, Bitterroot is out of business, I bought BSA's pre-64 375 H&H and he graciously threw in a bag of the 275 gr BBC's, actually, with 79 grains of RL-17 they run 2755 fps, chronoed one round, shot a 3/4" three shot group and have 16 rounds left for hunting.

Quickest load work up I've ever done.

That burr in your saddle must really be bothersome and making you read stuff I didn't write. There is no "angst", there is no issues with attaining a certain velocity or anything else, for the simple reason I'm not going anywhere.
As to hand loaded ammo, is that a factual number or something you pulled out from "somewhere"? I'm not doubting your statistics, just your relevance to the topic at hand and some of us DO enjoy hand loading. Oh and since I did reference bullets in my article, here's a picture of the recovered bullets in question. Whisky works wonders for burrs is saddles BTW.

One more point of discussion. Craig Boddington, who has over one hundred and twenty (!) safaris under his belt, relates a story in one of his books where he lost out on what was going to be his biggest kudu. Why? because he had with him a 3006 and the animal only presented him with a "Texas Heart Shot" (sic). He goes onto say, had he been carrying his 375, the shot would have been a no-brainer. Granted this was early on in his career where bullet technology was not what it is today (Partitions were around), but regardless, my point continues to be that shot placement/bullet construction are not always the end be all.

I see what you did there.

I'm willing to try "corn fed" eland. Works for Black Angus!

Texas Eland may be my best shot at one of those steaks. I hear they are great table fare.

I know how good S TX Nilgai meat tastes, some say Eland is even better.

DF

This is a very pertinent example, in my view. Let me add one from my experience in Zim in 2015. As you may recall, my friend, after much discussion with you, Ingwe, JB, Paladin, and of course John Sharpe, I had decided to leave my second rifle (a Sako 338 Win Mag) at home and shoot whatever I had to shoot with my 375 H&H and 300 gr Swift A-Frames. The cartridges were my own handloads, proven in my rifle during the 3 months leading up to my safari over and over and over again. I won't disagree with jdollar's statistics on the proportion of game killed worldwide with factory vs handloaded ammo, that is a completely irrelevant factor as far as I'm concerned; I used my own handloads for the same reason I've done 99% or more of my game-killing with my own handloaded ammunition, and the same reason I've caught at least 99% of the trout and salmon I've caught on my own hand-tied flies: it gives me great satisfaction to do so.

In any case, I had made the decision to go with the 375 H&H/300 gr Swift combination for everything, and had practiced with the combination extensively at ranges from 10 yards with irons to 300 yards with BOTH scopes I planned to take with me. I was confident I could place my bullets precisely anywhere in that range.

We had been hunting kudu quite hard for two days after killing my big Cape buffalo. This was Day 5 of my safari. It was late in the day, and we were headed home. The sun was barely above the mopane brush on our left, and I had pretty much given u pfor the day after several long walks in the bush chasing kudu tracks. I was hot and thirsty and really looking forward to a cool sundowner and my pipe, which I'd left in camp at lunch by mistake.

Suddenly John hit the brakes and said in a low voice, "Look at that monster!" I couldn't see The Monster, but on his say-so I spilled out the left side of the Land Cruiser and worked the bolt of my rifle as John peeled out behind me. We moved carefully to the back of the truck and peeked around the corner. There in the mopane scrub, a scarce 50 yards away, was a great gorgeous kudu bull. John whispered that he was "a big one", which from previous discussions meant it was close to 60", about as big as kudu get in the Bubye Valley Conservancy herd.

I put my sights on him, centering the thick post of the Trijicon Accupoint sight on his left shoulder 1/3 of the way up, and the rifle roared. I brought the rifle back down and worked the bolt simultaneously, looked for him with both eyes and the scope, but he was gone. Isaac, the tracker, twirled his finger in the air and said, "Zeezeezee!", indicating my bullet had ricocheted off a twig and likely missed the bull. Oh, well, thinks I, there goes my one shot today, but we'll get another tomorrow. When we followed up the shot we found a thumb-size branch cut off about 10 yards from the kudu's tracks, accounting for my miss. How I failed to see this branch when lining up the shot should have been a clue to me, and we were shortly to have even more trouble with this. The short version is that the bright green triangle at the top of my scope's reticle was too bright for the failing afternoon light, and in my ophthalmic cortex the necessary adjustments were flooding out the details of little things like intervening brush.

We were about to return to the truck when Isaac hissed, and we all looked to the right, and the kudu was just standing there, 50 yards away, just looking at us! John whispered at me to take the shot if I could, but it was too tight in the bush for the sticks, and I hurried my offhand shot, and missed again. The kudu ran off, but this time Isaac sang out that I had hit him, but maybe too far back. My heart sank. A wounded kudu in the African bush costs the same as a dead kudu in the back of the Land Cruiser, and I knew we had limited time to track him and finish him.

We tracked him several hundred yards back into the bush. Isaac insisted the bull was dragging one hind leg, and John translated that the tracker thought I'd gut-shot him. "No way," I insisted. My sights had been right on the shoulder when I let fly, the bull was broadside, and there was no chance of a hit that far back. But Isaac's opinion carried a lot more weight on the trail than mine at that point, so what I knew didn't really count for much.

Then we came across the bull again. He had made a wide half-circle by this time, and he was now west of us, with the setting sun almost behind him. Bad light. I could see him, but not well, and through the scope he was invisible. I tried changing my line, but no go... he simply vanished in the scope. Then he turned to his right, and suddenly his entire left side caught the sun and he stood out brilliantly in the dark brush. John was telling me to take my rifle off the sticks, that we would try to maneuver closer, but I saw the bull so clearly! In my mind was the knowledge that the bull was hit and wounded, and aside from my lost trophy fee this part of the Bubye is crawling with lions, which meant he'd be feline fodder by midnight with a bullet wound in his hindquarter. I couldn't let that happen.

So I put the post on his left flank and pulled the trigger. The rifle roared, and my hunter looked at me incredulously; he hadn't seen what I'd seen, and he clearly thought that my shot was folly. But Isaac shouted that I'd hit the bull hard, and dashed forward ten yards and called out that the bull was down. Sure enough, he was, and that was that. The kudu turned out to be only 53", nowhere near the anticipated 60", but that's the trick of the light in the bush. No matter, he was a beauty, and he was mine. He was down, mortally wounded, unable to rise; I put a finishing shot in his chest as he lay on the ground, and that was that.

I went to the skinning shed and stayed with the skinners to see what had happened. It turned out the bull was in fact unwounded before my shot into his flank, despite the trackers' insistence that I had wounded him. That gave me some satisfaction. But what gave me more satisfaction was finding the first Swift A-Frame under the skin of the offside (right) shoulder. The bullet had mushroomed very little, which was the expected result for a shot that did not hit bone.

The bullet travelled from his left flank, just forward of the hindquarter, throught the paunch, the ventricle of the heart, the right lung, and the right shoulder. It was exactly the performance I had anticipated this bullet in this caliber would give me. There is no chance that the 225 gr Accubond bullet I shoot in my 388 Win Mag would have been able to make that shot and kill that kudu.

And that is why I would take my 375 H&H with 300 gr A-Frames for Lord Derby Eland in the CAR, Jorge.

375, either H&H or Weatherby.

I have both, both built on Model 70s. Both weigh the same and are equally accurate. Both wear the same Swaro scopes, 1.5-6x-42 PHs.

270 TSXs in the H&H or 300 TSXs in the Wby.

prexactly. There's a reason for the adage"Use Enough Gun"....

That's a hell of a story Doc, Thanks!

Some have used their favorite .303cal SxS chronographing 175gnRN 2000mv and drilled their eland dead at 195yd.

There is no right or wrong with your choice vs his.... he wanted to hunt with his .303cal double and accepted what shots
he could and shouldnt take, the PH in his judgement accepted his choice and guided him onto success.

I would rather hear about hunts like that, than the one where a client wanted to bring 'enough gun', then completely misses
his record book jumbo at under 15 yds with .500cal...the fool was probably mind drunk on too much Ruark and Mark Sullivan.

Please provide the bullet manufacturer making 175gr RN in 303 caliber, and still waiting on your personal experiences with all of this. Google is not always right you know..

Just use a 45-70 loaded with Garret Hammerheads. Problem solved, guaranteed.

Pushed by a smoky load of holy black..

DF

DocRocket - thanks for the kudu story!

Hunting... Things happen! Congrats on the kudu.

Having only a little experience with the .338 & .375, I thought they were more similar in capabilities. Interesting. I surely do like my 375, but haven't worked it real hard, just a few black bears.

Regards, Guy

Guy, you're welcome. I put that up for y'all to read because it was an object lesson of inestimable value to me, and if it will help someone else down the road, so much the better. I frankly would not have taken that raking shot if I hadn't been sure the kudu was wounded already. But having seen the effect of it, I am now convinced of the power of the rifle, load, and bullet I used. I shouldn't have said that the .338/225 AB combination wouldn't have been able to duplicate the results, because I haven't tested the .338/225 combo on such a shot. But I am skeptical that anything short of a heavy-for-caliber A-Frame, North Fork, or similarly tough bullet in the .338 would have sufficed.

The beauty of it for me is that I find my 375 H&H far more comfortable to shoot than my .338 Win Mag. This is no doubt due to having spent a lot more time shooting the 375 from hunting positions than I have the .338, so perhaps I need to spend some more time at the range with the Sako before I make a rash decision to sell it off!

Well, I've collected a few head of game with a sporterized Lee-Enfield .303, but I've never seen a double .303 nor a 175 grain load for it. 180's were the most common load when I grew up, although IIRC C.I.L. made a 174 gr load as well.

I've interviewed quite a few PH's over the past 4-5 years for a project I'm working on, and they almost all tell me that the vast majority of their clients these days show up with a rifle they are quite competent with, regardless of caliber. I wonder if the tales you're referring to are just that... tales, not facts. One PH told me that 25 years ago it was not uncommon for a man to show up in camp with a brand new rifle he didn't know how to handle, but that that has become a rare thing in the present day.

Correctomundo, Doc. never seen one in 175. The original service round (BP) was a 215gr and the final MK VII round was 174. There is also a 150gr as well. On the double, our own Gunner500 has a LOVELY 303 SXS.

Good to know Jerry has one! As a non-British Commonwealth person, he should rightfully surrender that immediately to the nearest appropriate British Commonwealth person (subject of HM Elizabeth Regina), who would, of course, be me ...

Makes sense. You know, Havana was at one time under British Rule, so...

A 225 grain TSX would penetrate enough in my experience.

Just because you havent seen one doesnt mean they dont exist.
Numerous well known UK makers competed to produce .303cal SxS rifles at one point, take your pick...

Purdey & Sons
J.Rigby & Co
Westley Richards
Holland & Holland
George Gibbs
Daniel Frazer
Boss & Co.
W J Jeffery
Henry Atkin
R B Rodda
James McNaughton
John Dickson & Son
Alexander Henry
Thomas Bland & Sons
William Evans
Manton & Co.
Webley Scott
Army & Navy
Charles Lancaster
J.Woodward & Sons.





Well since you have never seen a .303 SxS in your life I very much doubt you would have ever gazed apon
catridges an owner handloaded for such.



Its only the internet , so you are free to keep wondering or questioning anything and everything.

I see the google-guru strikes again. My, aren't we touchy. Even an idiot like you should have been able to discern he was not questioning your veracity, but merely demonstrating an interest in 303 doubles. Oh, still waiting for that 175gr .311 bullet manufacturer.

The 270 TSX got a real foot hold and has an almost cult following, probably because it works.

The newer 250 TTSX has a better B.C., can be pushed a bit faster, shoots flatter, but you don't see much written about it. It looks like a pretty good bullet for a "stepchild".

DF

I don't see why the 250 .375 TSX would not be an excellent bullet.

Since I live between you two, I shall take it upon myself to act as deliveryman. Of course, it takes a very long time to travel from my place to Corpus Christi, maybe five or ten years if weather and road conditions cooperate.

Ed

Fixed it for you.

My point, I think it is an excellent bullet. The TTSX reportedly has a bigger hollow point under the tip and opens better than the non-tipped version.

It doesn't seem to get much press, not what it seems to deserve.

On big, tough African DG, maybe the TSX penetrates better than the TTSX, just guessing. But a big mono should dig pretty deep, anyway.

DF

You have never seen or heard of any .303 British ball Mk7 and Mk8 both in 175gn....? They were using that kind of stuff way back 1940s.
what about .303cal 190 grain ball, never heard of that either?



His comment was ambiguous, with no expressed interest in .303 SxS rifles
again, fallacies are all you have jorge...
the makers list is for the benefit of ALL readers who have interest in .303 SxS rifles.

I have not heard of a MK VII (7) round in 175gr. Just 174.

The MK VIII (8) was in 175, really made for the Vickers MG, but again, both military rounds and anybody in their right mind would be loathe to use them on a nice double. And you're still an ass, but were still waiting for your answers,,,

LOL Doc and Jorge, and yes, beings Ed's the centerline benchmark way point, he'll be delegated issuance. to be serious, all three of you guys are welcome to use that little double on a hunt, just let me know when and where ;]

The little 215 gr Woodleighs regulate beautifully at 2165 fps, ask Whelen Nut, he pulled up and rang TexnCals 100 yard steel with both barrels.

Man, you guys all in one place. That would call for a film crew...

DF

No, it would call for a total media blackout.

I have a reputation to maintain and blackmail is such an ugly word.

Ed

ACTION!!!!!..................................................................................................

Evidence...

And, you could trust us with the DVD, We're not like those Dems who Bleachbit a hard drive, bust up electonic devices with hammers, hide emails, then lie about it.

We'd make sure it went viral...

Full disclosure, don't ya know...

Inquiring minds and such...

DF

Yes, Mark VII's were 174. I used to shoot up a bunch of them.

JWP, I decided to test some 225 TTSXs. Got 2875 fps, easy bolt opening, no pressure (apparent) and this three shot group at 100. Rifle is a pre-64 Custom Shop rig w a Leupold VX-6 2X20X42 (ill duplex). It's my designated "cate rifle and it shoots anything you feed it. Had it sighted in w 210 TTSXs at 2930 fps, but JBM calculator has the 225 a bit less flat at 300.

I'd take my old FN/Sako in 375 Wby and shoot 300gr Partitions at around 2,800 fps, in other words, their factory offering. I can't load it any better or faster. It's a hammer at both ends.

Mk VII was a 174 gn bullet and Mk 8 while nominally a 175 gn bullet (though heavier bullets were sometimes loaded) was for beltfed machinegun use. While it could be de-linked such use was for emergencies only, as the Mk 8 load was known to be very erosive of rifle bores. It would be unlikely that anyone would pull apart some Vickers gun ammo to shoot in their double, and nor would it regulate if the rifle was regulated for standard 215 gn (as those I've seen have been) or Mk VII ammo.

As well, the Mk 8 ball load is not what you actually described:



A 175 gn RN at 2000 fps doesn't match any .303 load of which I'm aware, and I've owned and used .303s for the better part of 40 years. Nominal velocity for a 174 Mk VII in a SMLE is 2440 fps, 400-odd fps higher. Who built a double to regulate for such a downloaded round?

I havent claimed anybody did such thing., it was simply a response to those two who said they had never heard of
.303 175gn ammunition....nothing more nothing less.



Thats great, since nowhere have I said Mk8 and handloaded Hornady RN were the same thing.

Hornady's .303 RN is a 174 gn bullet, not 175. I have a box of them on the shelf in my gunroom. As well, you still have the issue of regulation with your "handload" to address. It tends to be quite tricky with smaller calibre doubles. Unless of course you are just making stuff up ...

LOL yes I know, is called a little typo...and by your own admission you still knew exactly which Hornady RN bullet I meant,
it could only be that one, right?



and you proved to have trouble with basic straight forward english.
you accused the seperate Mk8 as not being the handloaded Hornady RN i described.
which makes zero sense.

Now, regarding regulation, I know you can regulate .303 SxS to a different weight by playing around with powers,
or the more expensive regulation option of having barrels heated- jig adjusted then test fired etc, with the handload
of ones preference....sorry, I dont know how the .303 double owner had it done.



Not me, but somebody else maybe....I am not a member of AR but have outwardly followed some interesting threads
over the yrs. .303 sxs 175RN Hornady was posted there under something about calibres for eland or other.
The complete .500cal miss <15 yd jumbo report was posted by a long time regular member that frequented the Af. section,
nobody else of the regular circle D-G AR 'Africa' crowd called him out..BS or exaggeration?. I dont know....how do you tell?

iF I told you a guy desperately needed to borrow another spare big cal. rifle to kill his elephant with 13 or so shots total ,
because he only came afield with only 6 or so rounds, while a well know PH just watched the whole protracted fiasco unfold,
would you believe it?....yes or no?.....ive seen footage a few times, will try to find it.

I think that part of that phenomina is that RSA and Nambian hunts can now be done in 7-10 days, and are affordable to a much larger range of working stiff than the classic safaris were. Before the late 1980's there was not much of a safari industry in South Africa, much less Nambia. I went during the Aparthied years, and an American was a curiosity. Traditional safaris in Botswana, Tanzania or going back to Kenya were still largely 21 day full bag affairs that were expensive, and affordable largely to a wealthier clientele that weren't red neck gun nuts.

Now, red neck gun nuts (us) can save up enough cash to do a 10 day 7 animal RSA hunt, and work up 2 rifles and loads to go with it.

Next part of the eqaution is where the clients are from. Brits don't practice much, and neither do most Europeans. No opportunity.

The above post has so much inane, wrong bullshit why bother pointing it out but preserved for posterity...