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jorgeI Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DocRocket
There is no chance that the 225 gr Accubond bullet I shoot in my 388 Win Mag would have been able to make that shot and kill that kudu.

And that is why I would take my 375 H&H with 300 gr A-Frames for Lord Derby Eland in the CAR, Jorge.


prexactly. There's a reason for the adage"Use Enough Gun"....


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by jorgeI
One more point of discussion. Craig Boddington, who has over one hundred and twenty (!) safaris under his belt, relates a story in one of his books where he lost out on what was going to be his biggest kudu. Why? because he had with him a 3006 and the animal only presented him with a "Texas Heart Shot" (sic). He goes onto say, had he been carrying his 375, the shot would have been a no-brainer. Granted this was early on in his career where bullet technology was not what it is today (Partitions were around), but regardless, my point continues to be that shot placement/bullet construction are not always the end be all.


This is a very pertinent example, in my view. Let me add one from my experience in Zim in 2015. As you may recall, my friend, after much discussion with you, Ingwe, JB, Paladin, and of course John Sharpe, I had decided to leave my second rifle (a Sako 338 Win Mag) at home and shoot whatever I had to shoot with my 375 H&H and 300 gr Swift A-Frames. The cartridges were my own handloads, proven in my rifle during the 3 months leading up to my safari over and over and over again. I won't disagree with jdollar's statistics on the proportion of game killed worldwide with factory vs handloaded ammo, that is a completely irrelevant factor as far as I'm concerned; I used my own handloads for the same reason I've done 99% or more of my game-killing with my own handloaded ammunition, and the same reason I've caught at least 99% of the trout and salmon I've caught on my own hand-tied flies: it gives me great satisfaction to do so.

In any case, I had made the decision to go with the 375 H&H/300 gr Swift combination for everyth10 yardsing, and had practiced with the combination extensively at ranges from 10 yards with irons to 300 yards with BOTH scopes I had with me. I was confident I could place my bullets precisely anywhere in that range.

We had been hunting kudu quite hard for two days after killing my big Cape buffalo. This was Day 5 of my safari. It was late in the day, and we were headed home. The sun was barely above the mopane brush on our left, and I had pretty much given u pfor the day after several long walks in the bush chasing kudu tracks. I was hot and thirsty and really looking forward to a cool sundowner and my pipe, which I'd left in camp at lunch by mistake.

Suddenly John hit the brakes and said in a low voice, "Look at that monster!" I couldn't see The Monster, but on his say-so I spilled out the left side of the Land Cruiser and worked the bolt of my rifle as John peeled out behind me. We moved carefully to the back of the truck and peeked around the corner. There in the mopane scrub, a scarce 50 yards away, was a great gorgeous kudu bull. John whispered that he was "a big one", which from previous discussions meant it was close to 60", about as big as kudu get in the Bubye Valley Conservancy herd.

I put my sights on him, centering the thick post of the Trijicon Accupoint sight on his left shoulder 1/3 of the way up, and the rifle roared. I brought the rifle back down and worked the bolt simultaneously, looked for him with both eyes and the scope, but he was gone. Isaac, the tracker, twirled his finger in the air and said, "Zeezeezee!", indicating my bullet had ricocheted off a twig and likely missed the bull. Oh, well, thinks I, there goes my one shot today, but we'll get another tomorrow. When we followed up the shot we found a thumb-size branch cut off about 10 yards from the kudu's tracks, accounting for my miss. How I failed to see this branch when lining up the shot should have been a clue to me, and we were shortly to have even more trouble with this. The short version is that the bright green triangle at the top of my scope's reticle was too bright for the failing afternoon light, and in my ophthalmic cortex the necessary adjustments were flooding out the details of little things like intervening brush.

We were about to return to the truck when Isaac hissed, and we all looked to the right, and the kudu was just standing there, 50 yards away, just looking at us! John whispered at me to take the shot if I could, but it was too tight in the bush for the sticks, and I hurried my offhand shot, and missed again. The kudu ran off, but this time Isaac sang out that I had hit him, but maybe too far back. My heart sank. A wounded kudu in the African bush costs the same as a dead kudu in the back of the Land Cruiser, and I knew we had limited time to track him and finish him.

We tracked him several hundred yards back into the bush. Isaac insisted the bull was dragging one hind leg, and John translated that the tracker thought I'd gut-shot him. "No way," I insisted. My sights had been right on the shoulder when I let fly, the bull was broadside, and there was no chance of a hit that far back. But Isaac's opinion carried a lot more weight on the trail than mine at that point, so what I knew didn't really count for much.

Then we came across the bull again. He had made a wide half-circle by this time, and he was now west of us, with the setting sun almost behind him. Bad light. I could see him, but not well, and through the scope he was invisible. I tried changing my line, but no go... he simply vanished in the scope. Then he turned to his right, and suddenly his entire right side caught the sun and he stood out brilliantly in the dark brush. John was telling me to take my rifle off the sticks, that we would try to maneuver closer, but I saw the bull so clearly! In my mind was the knowledge that the bull was hit and wounded, and aside from my lost trophy fee this part of the Bubye is crawling with lions, which meant he'd be feline fodder by midnight with a bullet wound in his hindquarter. I couldn't let that happen.

So I put the post on his left flank and pulled the trigger. The rifle roared, and my hunter looked at me incredulously; he hadn't seen what I'd seen, and he clearly thought that my shot was folly. But Isaac shouted that I'd hit the bull hard, and dashed forward ten yards and called out that the bull was down. Sure enough, he was, and that was that. The kudu turned out to be only 53", nowhere near the anticipated 60", but that's the trick of the light in the bush. No matter, he was a beauty, and he was mine. He was down, mortally wounded, unable to rise; I put a finishing shot in his chest as he lay on the ground, and that was that.

I went to the skinning shed and stayed with the skinners to see what had happened. It turned out the bull was in fact unwounded before my shot into his flank, despite the trackers' insistence that I had wounded him. That gave me some satisfaction. But what gave me more satisfaction was finding the first Swift A-Frame under the skin of the offside (right) shoulder. The bullet had mushroomed very little, which was the expected result for a shot that did not hit bone.

The bullet travelled from his left flank, just forward of the hindquarter, throught the paunch, the ventricle of the heart, the right lung, and the right shoulder. It was exactly the performance I had anticipated this bullet in this caliber would give me. There is no chance that the 225 gr Accubond bullet I shoot in my 388 Win Mag would have been able to make that shot and kill that kudu.

And that is why I would take my 375 H&H with 300 gr A-Frames for Lord Derby Eland in the CAR, Jorge.



That's a hell of a story Doc, Thanks! smile


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
I've taken eland myself, used a 375 with 300gr AFrames and I was glad I did..


Some have used their favorite .303cal SxS chronographing 175gnRN 2000mv and drilled their eland dead at 195yd.

There is no right or wrong with your choice vs his.... he wanted to hunt with his .303cal double and accepted what shots
he could and shouldnt take, the PH in his judgement accepted his choice and guided him onto success.

I would rather hear about hunts like that, than the one where a client wanted to bring 'enough gun', then completely misses
his record book jumbo at under 15 yds with .500cal...the fool was probably mind drunk on too much Ruark and Mark Sullivan.







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jorgeI Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Starman


Some have used their favorite .303cal SxS chronographing 175gnRN 2000mv and drilled their eland dead at 195yd.


Please provide the bullet manufacturer making 175gr RN in 303 caliber, and still waiting on your personal experiences with all of this. Google is not always right you know..


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Just use a 45-70 loaded with Garret Hammerheads. Problem solved, guaranteed.

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Originally Posted by sharpsguy
Just use a 45-70 loaded with Garret Hammerheads. Problem solved, guaranteed.

Pushed by a smoky load of holy black.. shocked

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DocRocket - thanks for the kudu story!

Hunting... Things happen! Congrats on the kudu.

Having only a little experience with the .338 & .375, I thought they were more similar in capabilities. Interesting. I surely do like my 375, but haven't worked it real hard, just a few black bears.

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Guy, you're welcome. I put that up for y'all to read because it was an object lesson of inestimable value to me, and if it will help someone else down the road, so much the better. I frankly would not have taken that raking shot if I hadn't been sure the kudu was wounded already. But having seen the effect of it, I am now convinced of the power of the rifle, load, and bullet I used. I shouldn't have said that the .338/225 AB combination wouldn't have been able to duplicate the results, because I haven't tested the .338/225 combo on such a shot. But I am skeptical that anything short of a heavy-for-caliber A-Frame, North Fork, or similarly tough bullet in the .338 would have sufficed.

The beauty of it for me is that I find my 375 H&H far more comfortable to shoot than my .338 Win Mag. This is no doubt due to having spent a lot more time shooting the 375 from hunting positions than I have the .338, so perhaps I need to spend some more time at the range with the Sako before I make a rash decision to sell it off!


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Originally Posted by Starman


Some have used their favorite .303cal SxS chronographing 175gnRN 2000mv and drilled their eland dead at 195yd.

There is no right or wrong with your choice vs his.... he wanted to hunt with his .303cal double and accepted what shots
he could and shouldnt take, the PH in his judgement accepted his choice and guided him onto success.

I would rather hear about hunts like that, than the one where a client wanted to bring 'enough gun', then completely misses
his record book jumbo at under 15 yds with .500cal...the fool was probably mind drunk on too much Ruark and Mark Sullivan.


Well, I've collected a few head of game with a sporterized Lee-Enfield .303, but I've never seen a double .303 nor a 175 grain load for it. 180's were the most common load when I grew up, although IIRC C.I.L. made a 174 gr load as well.

I've interviewed quite a few PH's over the past 4-5 years for a project I'm working on, and they almost all tell me that the vast majority of their clients these days show up with a rifle they are quite competent with, regardless of caliber. I wonder if the tales you're referring to are just that... tales, not facts. One PH told me that 25 years ago it was not uncommon for a man to show up in camp with a brand new rifle he didn't know how to handle, but that that has become a rare thing in the present day.


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Correctomundo, Doc. never seen one in 175. The original service round (BP) was a 215gr and the final MK VII round was 174. There is also a 150gr as well. On the double, our own Gunner500 has a LOVELY 303 SXS.


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Good to know Jerry has one! As a non-British Commonwealth person, he should rightfully surrender that immediately to the nearest appropriate British Commonwealth person (subject of HM Elizabeth Regina), who would, of course, be me ...



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Makes sense. You know, Havana was at one time under British Rule, so...


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by DocRocket
There is no chance that the 225 gr Accubond bullet I shoot in my 388 Win Mag would have been able to make that shot and kill that kudu.

And that is why I would take my 375 H&H with 300 gr A-Frames for Lord Derby Eland in the CAR, Jorge.


prexactly. There's a reason for the adage"Use Enough Gun"....



A 225 grain TSX would penetrate enough in my experience.



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Originally Posted by DocRocket

I've never seen a double .303


Just because you havent seen one doesnt mean they dont exist.
Numerous well known UK makers competed to produce .303cal SxS rifles at one point, take your pick...

Purdey & Sons
J.Rigby & Co
Westley Richards
Holland & Holland
George Gibbs
Daniel Frazer
Boss & Co.
W J Jeffery
Henry Atkin
R B Rodda
James McNaughton
John Dickson & Son
Alexander Henry
Thomas Bland & Sons
William Evans
Manton & Co.
Webley Scott
Army & Navy
Charles Lancaster
J.Woodward & Sons.



Quote
...nor a 175 grain load for it.


Well since you have never seen a .303 SxS in your life I very much doubt you would have ever gazed apon
catridges an owner handloaded for such.

Originally Posted by DocRocket

I wonder if the tales you're referring to are just that... tales, not facts.


Its only the internet , so you are free to keep wondering or questioning anything and everything.


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Originally Posted by Starman
Originally Posted by DocRocket

I've never seen a double .303


Just because you havent seen one doesnt mean they dont exist.
Numerous well known UK makers competed to produce .303cal SxS rifles at one point, take your pick...

Purdey & Sons
J.Rigby & Co
Westley Richards
Holland & Holland
George Gibbs
Daniel Frazer
Boss & Co.
W J Jeffery
Henry Atkin
R B Rodda
James McNaughton
John Dickson & Son
Alexander Henry
Thomas Bland & Sons
William Evans
Manton & Co.
Webley Scott
Army & Navy
Charles Lancaster



Quote
...nor a 175 grain load for it.


Well since you have never seen a .303 SxS in your life I very much doubt you would have ever gazed apon
catridges an owner handloaded for such.

Originally Posted by DocRocket

I wonder if the tales you're referring to are just that... tales, not facts.


Its only the internet , so you are free to keep wondering or questioning anything and everything.


I see the google-guru strikes again. My, aren't we touchy. Even an idiot like you should have been able to discern he was not questioning your veracity, but merely demonstrating an interest in 303 doubles. Oh, still waiting for that 175gr .311 bullet manufacturer.


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Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by DocRocket
There is no chance that the 225 gr Accubond bullet I shoot in my 388 Win Mag would have been able to make that shot and kill that kudu.

And that is why I would take my 375 H&H with 300 gr A-Frames for Lord Derby Eland in the CAR, Jorge.


prexactly. There's a reason for the adage"Use Enough Gun"....



A 225 grain TSX would penetrate enough in my experience.

The 270 TSX got a real foot hold and has an almost cult following, probably because it works.

The newer 250 TTSX has a better B.C., can be pushed a bit faster, shoots flatter, but you don't see much written about it. It looks like a pretty good bullet for a "stepchild".

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I don't see why the 250 .375 TSX would not be an excellent bullet.



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Originally Posted by DocRocket
Good to know Jerry has one! As a non-British Commonwealth person, he should rightfully surrender that immediately to the nearest appropriate British Commonwealth person (subject of HM Elizabeth Regina), who would, of course, be me ...



Since I live between you two, I shall take it upon myself to act as deliveryman. Of course, it takes a very long time to travel from my place to Corpus Christi, maybe five or ten years if weather and road conditions cooperate. grin

Ed


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Originally Posted by jwp475


I don't see why the 250 .375 TTSX would not be an excellent bullet.

Fixed it for you.

My point, I think it is an excellent bullet. The TTSX reportedly has a bigger hollow point under the tip and opens better than the non-tipped version.

It doesn't seem to get much press, not what it seems to deserve.

On big, tough African DG, maybe the TSX penetrates better than the TTSX, just guessing. But a big mono should dig pretty deep, anyway.

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Originally Posted by jorgeI

Originally Posted by DocRocket
I've never seen a double .303 nor a 175 grain load for it...

Correctomundo, Doc. never seen one in 175....The original service round (BP) was a 215gr and the final MK VII round was 174.


You have never seen or heard of any .303 British ball Mk7 and Mk8 both in 175gn....? They were using that kind of stuff way back 1940s.
what about .303cal 190 grain ball, never heard of that either?

Originally Posted by jorgeI

...he was not questioning your veracity, but merely demonstrating an interest in 303 doubles.


His comment was ambiguous, with no expressed interest in .303 SxS rifles
again, fallacies are all you have jorge... wink
the makers list is for the benefit of ALL readers who have interest in .303 SxS rifles.


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