Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Good cop to bad cop ratio

I'll toss on my flame suit and ask this question. I wish it could remain civil and factual but this is the 'fire after all.
A few past and now some recent events have me pondering this question and I'm looking for honest information from our LEO and law professionals here.

We hear about the few bad apples when it comes to bad cops. Some say 1% others 10% or even more. What is your definition of a "bad cop"? It is your duty to enforce the law. You are not above the law although some of them pertain to you differently. As in any profession, that person is expected to have greater knowledge and understanding in their field. That does not seem to be the case anymore.

I cannot claim innocence to a crime because of my ignorance to the law. Why is it fair for an arresting officer to take a person into custody then try to figure out what law was broken? Why is it okay for them to arrest me then drop charges later? That arrest is on my record even though I was innocent. They are not held accountable for infringing on our rights and all they have to do is claim ignorance.

Anyway, back to the original question. To all the "good cops" out there or any professional of the law, have you ever looked the other way while one of your brothers have broken the law? I hear about officer discretion but why aren't you held to a higher standard?

Are you still considered a good cop if you follow everything to the book but let other LEO slide while they fail at their paid profession?

I live in a very rural area and the majority of folks are good honest people. Our ratio of LEO to population is absurd. I'm not sure how so many bad apples can fit in one barrel. We have some great officers but the ratio isn't good. Just recently we have a couple that have been fired for beating the crap out of people while on duty, one for shooting up buildings twice and a trooper that is deemed Giglio impaired. These are just a few of the instances that are public. There are many more swept under the rug by their buddies.

I used to always give the benefit to the LEO but it is now the opposite. In my opinion this profession is going to hell and it is up to the good guys to turn it around. Are you up for the task?

It would be nice if we could get LEO to answer the simple question of, "Do you consider the 4th amendment of the constitution as an impediment to conducting your work, or an essential right that trumps the added effort for you to show probable cause and get a judge to grant you a warrant"

To me that's the gold standard of good cop / bad cop. I'd venture to say if we could use that litmus test, issues of comply or be tazed, cops that never back down when challenged, etc., would for the most part go away as if by magic.

Good to Bad ratio? Depends how many are writing me tickets.

It's not the "good" Cop "bad" Cop conundrum to ponder. It's the "thin blue line" that has made the difference discernible.

If you looking for answers, ask simple questions.
We'll see who bites on your Rorschach schtick.

When asked the definition of "cheating" I always say ask your spouse because its different and biased in every case.

When asking about bad cops, don't ask a cop.

I watch people getting heated over the gas shortage and gas pump lines affecting roadways, where are the cops, writing tickets instead of directing things.

There ain't any good cops!

I wish everyone would stop harping on cops. The cop on the street is expected to do a mountain of tasks perfectly; much of it above their capacity. Generally, the people who are willing to take these jobs are only willing to wrestle crackheads for a living just because they don't have any better options. They have limited capacity and too much is expected of them.

If you want to look at good and bad, look up the chain to those who hire, train and direct.

Ok two quick answers.

1. I do my job within the Constitution. It's not a hindrance, it is the standard. The people I work with are the same. The end doesn't justify the means if you break the rules and violate the Constitution on the way.

2. The thin blue line issue that people complain so much about is BS. As with any community, there is a bond between police officers. However, I have never seen nor would I allow anyone to violate a persons Consitutional rights, and not step in and say something. The people I work with are the same. We demand it of each other from the beginning of the hiring process, through the academy and field training, to daily life on the street. I wouldn't be apart of it, if things were any other way.

Now, that said...there are bad people in every profession. Welders, plumbers, doctors and judges. Occasionally, they slip through the cracks and are identified in some unfortunate and potentially embarrassing situation. That's regrettable but people are human. Generally speaking, you get what you pay for. If you're not happy with what you have, let your city counsel or county commission, etc. know that. But...dont bitch when your taxes go up.

You are blindly corrupted if you think the thin blue line is BS.



https://theintestinalfortitude.com/2015/04/09/serpico-the-thin-blue-line-by-rick-baldwin/

Factually? Probably no more than any other profession where certain levels of vetting are required. My guess would be ~5% - 7% of total American cops are "bad cops".

Two primary reasons come to mind, the first being a public that now has instant video of "misdeeds", and second, the pool of candidates to become cops.

Where I worked, the vetting was extremely thorough, yet we had our share of guys go "bad". I think that the lawsuits to allow damned near anyone to be a cop, lowered standards, a lack of psych testing, and a lack of qualified applicants cause LE administrators to hire less than stellar people for a very powerful position. Plus, most cops don't get paid the big bucks and the incentives to make it a career instead of just a job are rapidly going away.

Will there always be "bad cops". Yes, because we hire human beings.

A couple of your comments above interest me.
"Why is it fair for an arresting officer to take a person into custody then try to figure out what law was broken? a LEO has an obligation to enforce the law. If you are suspected of committing a crime, it's appropriate for the LEO to "detain" you while trying to figure out the details. If the elements of a crime are present, and you are part of those elements, then you get charged. If not, you are released. The public expects LEOs to take appropriate action and letting a suspect go and figuring out later that they are the one who committed the crime does nothing to insure accountability and public safety.

Why is it okay for them to arrest me then drop charges later? Did the cops drop the charges or the Prosecutor's Office? Most likely it was the Prosecutor's Office since cops have the ability to release someone who has been detained, but I know of no jurisdiction where the cops can drop formal charges once they are filed. That is what Prosecutors do, quite often at their discretion. In many cases, it's not because the person wasn't guilty, but either the Prosecutor felt that they couldn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, their budget was too low to take it to court, or there are more serious crimes that need their resources. In other cases, the Prosecutor looks at the facts as presented by the LEO and decides that the elements don't fit after all. Wouldn't you rather have the charges dropped than have them hanging over your head? Taking someone into custody is not done lightly as I will explain in answering the other points'

That arrest is on my record even though I was innocent. They are not held accountable for infringing on our rights and all they have to do is claim ignorance. " Yes the arrest is on your record, but most people interested in your background give you an opportunity to explain what happened as far as the charges being dropped. Most businesses ask "have you ever been convicted", not "have you ever been arrested". Those who do ask about the "arrest" vs. the "conviction" should allow for proof of no adjudication and use that as the basis for hiring or not.

The second part of your statement is not quite true. There are avenues for civil rights infringement, most notably suing in Federal Court for a Title 1983 violation. This type of law suit is very serious and is not taken lightly by any agency or officer. No one in LE wants a Title 1983 violation on their history. Think of it as being akin to being accused, tried and convicted of raping small children. People who are found guilty are faced with imprisonment, big dollar fines, and an agency can find itself under a "Consent Decree" ordering that every facet of day-to-day police work is monitored by federal observers (read lawyers). It would be like a lawyer looking over your shoulder 24/7/365 while you try to do your job and they are looking for the slightest mistake.

As to "all they have to do is claim ignorance", this is something that will come out in a Title 1983 violation suit. They will dig into every facet of training that officer has received, from academy training to FTO (Field Training Officer", to personnel records to see if this subject has been addressed. If it has, the LEO's ass is cooked. The agency has to prove that it not only trained the LEO properly, but that it also maintained that standard and has not ignored other instances of the same behavior in this LEO or any other LEO in that agency.

There is a "good faith exception" where the LEO thought they were doing the right thing, but were wrong. That bit of human nature also has to be taken into consideration. What has to be examined is whether the LEO SHOULD have known that it wrong. That's pretty easy to figure out at the Internal Affairs level.

Once again, the LE agency belongs to the citizens and the citizens have to hold it accountable. No one else will.

Ed

,Every law officer I have ever met here in Fremont County WY has been a standup person, even though personality-wise a few of them are not Mr. Sparkle. They have a tough job here , being spread thinly throughout a very large rural county, and are much appreciated by the law-abiding portion of our citizens.

I expressed my opinion. I don't work in New York City and never will. How things are there, I couldn't say. I'm amazed that you would consider me corrupt because someone else had a different view. That's OK, I don't value your opinion either, Harry.

A welders welds fail = Fired
A plumbers joints leak = Fired
A Doctors surgery fails = Fired
A cops tickets are dismissed = Keeps his job and bennies.

Low wages justify poor workmanship? That's weak.

A cop that writes me a justified ticket is okay in my book. They're doing their job and that's what I pay them for. One who sees a fellow officer speeding and looks the other way is is of weak conscience and is undeserving to have such authority. We both broke the law yet I'm held to a higher standard.

I'm going for a beer and popcorn run. I'll check back later.

I figure the ratio is about the same as it is among the U.S. citizenry. About 10% are just sorry, about40% don't give a crap about anything but themselves, and the other half are decent folks. The bad ones get all the press.

If you don't realize the thin blue line is as real as the sun rising in the east then indeed the system has corrupted you. And your answer smacks of the smarmy contempt public employees have for the general public these days. Fake and corrupt scam public employee unions breeds that attitude in spades.

Thank you.

Good point.

That's simple. The Constitution trumps all of it, particularly the Fourth Amendment. That's why such an inordinate amount of time is given Search & Seizure laws in any LE academy.

In America, if a LEO violates the Fourth Amendment during an investigation, the whole case normally gets tossed There always exceptions which I can explain if someone wants to read another "War & Peace" length book. In addition to the case being tossed, the defendant goes free, irrespective of what they have done.

In most other countries, if their laws on search & seizure are violated, the LEO gets sanctioned (usually a fine) but all of the evidence still can be used against the defendant.

So, if a LEO puts in the work and, because of his/her stupidity, the case is tossed. Then, a couple of things happen to that LEO. In a decent agency (which most are) the LEO gets his/her ass handed to them by their administration, and second (and probably of greater impact to the LEO and the agency) is that every, and I mean EVERY arrest this LEO makes will be under extreme scrutiny not only by the agency, but by the Prosecutors and particularly by the Defense Bar. A prosecutor may decide to drop any case this LEO is involved in, meaning the LEO has no purpose. Then, they get terminated and they will most likely never work as a LEO again. Anywhere. No credibility, no job.

Oh, yeah, it's nice to daydream of not needing "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" and "no 4th Amendment issues to worry about", but that isn't reality. That is a corrupt, evil organization.

As to the " issues of comply or be tazed, cops that never back down when challenged, etc" going away, nah, there are still human beings with their issues, some of them repairable, some not. Those that can be fixed, should be. The others, perhaps they would do well to become lion tamers in the circus 'cause they damned sure ain't cut out for LE.

Ed

White_Bear,

I also wanted to address these two;

Anyway, back to the original question. To all the "good cops" out there or any professional of the law, have you ever looked the other way while one of your brothers have broken the law? I hear about officer discretion but why aren't you held to a higher standard? Broken the law or a traffic code? Broken the law, no. In fact I turned in the Sergeant I had as a rookie for stealing and testified against her.
Have I given a fellow cop a break for speeding? Yup! Just as I have given countless other people the same break. Not everyone gets a ticket.
I HAVE written a LEO a ticket because they gave me no other choice. The idiot flashed his badge at me and TOLD me to let him go. Surprise! He wasn't very happy and told my supervisor exactly that. My Sergeant told him to "go cry on someone else's shoulder 'cause his "giveashitter" was broke that day"

We ARE held to a higher standard, that's why everything a LEO does wrong is immediately seized upon and spread all over. You just don't see that with plumbers, electricians, dentists, secretaries, etc...

Are you still considered a good cop if you follow everything to the book but let other LEO slide while they fail at their paid profession? NO. You're not a good cop if you observe a crime being committed and you walk away from it. We all get painted with the same, broad brush, regardless if we are the one committing the crime, just because we wear the same uniform.
My integrity means everything to me. Without it I cannot hold my head up. My self respect would not allow it, and almost every LEO I have ever met lives by the same rule.

I have over 26 years in LE, and am very proud of my life. It's not just a job, nor a career, it's a life.

Ed

Then I thank you good sir. I only wish there were more folks with such moral integrity.