Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire So, if an honest citizen steps up and

the point was, not an illegal weapon. so as to keep the question relatively simple, vs complicating it with a fully auto AR with a wildcat cartridge with a silencer etc etc. that's why.

To expand on my earlier comment, here in Utah Sam would be acting legally, whether or not he was in any immediate personal danger. There is a set of violent felonies such as murder, rape, and arson that justify deadly force by a citizen protecting others. The same law excuses shots that go astray and harm an innocent person.

My point was that the CCW was in possession of a legal weapon as was the deer hunter. Neither are under a legal obligation to play cop and confront someone bent upon murder, but are quite justified in doing so in order to prevent it. In that regard the two circumstances are analogous.

My CCL Instructor said that we would not be liable for damages from passed thru bullets but would be liable for damages caused by our misses.

Maybe your state is different, but the common law rule is that if the shooting is justified, near misses that inflict harm to bystanders are not criminally or civilly actionable.

Expound, not expand.

Either works.

Best way to keep that from happening is to keep the misses away from the rifle.

One of the many reasons we left Tucson, and Pima county. Getting pretty weird up there.

The premise of this hypothetical situation is very unlikely. That a private citizen with a rifle would be able to identify a target in a multi story hotel from several hundred yards away is very unlikely. Notwithstanding the broken windows I seriously doubt a trained law enforcement officer could have acquired the target in this situation. The darkness, noise, and confusion would have worked against him. Not to mention shooting high power rifle fire into a crowded hotel. As to the question of legal liability, of course "Sam" wouldn't be legally liable or wrong if he could pull it off, but the only reasonable way to engage a shooter like this is from inside the hotel.
I have often wondered why nobody seems to have even a snub nose .38 when somebody goes on a close quarters shooting rampage as in Gabby Giffords, Luby's Cafeteria, Sandyhook Elementary School,etc. That is all it would take to end that kind of nonsense. A long range shootout with a sniper barricaded in a crowded hotel is pretty sticky situation. I have a good bit of law enforcement firearms training (no military),frequently target practice at long ranges, and hunt feral hogs at night a lot, but I would not have shot into that hotel without a very clear target and a very steady rest.

Now how could it get weird with Raul protecting you????????

Walter Mitty would have done it.

IF you had said rifle, say a scoped 30-06, had enough skill to really hit at 500 yards uphill, didn't get taken down by a panicked crowd or any other good guy or LE, could really spot the right window, and could be certain of not making an error, maybe the guy would still be mostly or completely shielded by the wall in front of him.

Most of us honest citizens (I hope I fit the bill) would help other people get over walls, behind something, or do whatever first aid we know. That is what we see every time there is an opportunity, be it a shooter, flood, hurricane, or car accident. Sometimes TV even spots the "hero".

Even the half drunk retards taking direct fire isolated the shots coming from the hotel in a matter of minutes. It would be no trick to access a rifle, close 100-200 yds of distance and return fire effectively.

That very thing happened with the Charles Whitman shooting.




Clark

Okay, 'Flave, I am sure you are correct as regards the USA. But my personal opinion is "Sam" would be totally screwed by both civil and criminal courts were this scenario to take place in Chicago, NY City, Wa DC, and perhaps several other modern bastions of Communism.

I know at least one (and perhaps a couple more) gentleman who could have easily made Paddock duck for cover if not kill him outright from his seat in the venue with his daily carry N frame Smith. Yes from 400 yds plus. But alas, he was not there. Nor do I know if a person can get a CCW into the venue.

Heck, give me ten minutes, and a pocket full of ammo, I could walk a few rounds into his window with my 657. Only problem would be the hotel patrons behind the other windows I would break with the first three or four rounds acquiring the proper hold. It usually takes me about three sighters to hit a badger mound at 400 to 600 yds. Paddock's window was at least as large as a badger mound.

Now here is a thought. Was the concert a "gun free zone"? Were metal detectors present? Might be the perfect time for gun shot victims to sue the promoters for failing to protect them while denying them the ability of self defense.

I think something a lot of people miss is that you don't have to be part of the target area to bring resolution to a situation.





Dave

Seriously?

Yes. I am also capable of hitting targets at those ranges with a sidearm. However I don't know that I'd "walk" a few 260gr Keith's to my primary target zone if my primary target zone was in a hotel. I also don't know that I'd open fire from inside the venue. And I am relatively sure "walking" my rounds up a hotel will be substantially more difficult without a spotter, and without the good earth telling me where my rounds are hitting.

But again, this is people assuming you have to be part of the target area to bring resolution to a situation. You don't.




Clark

Don't think I can agree with most of this. 'Tis pretty easy to spot muzzle flash from nearly automatic fire. And all the hunters I personally know keep their hunting scopes zeroed for 300 yds. Mine are set at 350 yds.

If you are not prepared to kill game at 400 yds in the country I hunt, your freezer will remain empty nine years out of ten. And, of course field expedient rests are the norm. It seems to me that 75% of Idaho and Eastern Oregon deer hunters are better prepared to take a 400 yd shot than 95% of LEOs. With the exception of SWAT team snipers.

I would surmise, if a large crown were experiencing gun fire, any (Hero) pulling his Smith biggobangmuthafugga, would be summarily stomped to death by the crowd thinking Hero was the shooter.

There's a lot of difference between Texas in 1966 and now! Like has happened in many states, lots of people moved there and changed a good bit of the culture and politics.