Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics VX-6 failure couple of days ago

Had a Leupy VX-6 go haywire Thursday when making a final one click left adjustment on Hope's Tikka T-3X 7-08.

We'd both shot several good to excellent groups previous to this, with this load in this gun with this scope, a VX-6 2-12 purchased in Dec 2015. Had her pretty much set up for rifle season coming up, but wanted to just do a final validation. She was doing the shooting, and she shot a good 3 shot group at 100 (slightly over an inch), an even better 3 shot group at 200. All shots were slightly right of center - all shots were <1.5" from center black diamond. She wanted it just a little left, so I took the scope one click left. Next shot was 6 inches left - what the heck! Took it back one click right to original - next shot was over 8 inches right of the last shot - about 2.5" right of any of the first six fired.

Needless to say she was not happy! What followed then was a exercise in futility for about 5 more shots of chasing shots by adjusting both windage and elevation and getting nothing remotely near what was expected. The second target looked like few I've seen the shots were so bad.

The scope was mounted in Talleys, torqued to their specs. Ammo was handloaded, 120 gr Nosler BT, Nosler brass, 2000MR powder, runout checked to less than .002". She was using front and rear rests and it was essentially calm. She's ex-military, expert marksman qualified and is a very good shot.

We were at our farm doing various chores, so the barrel was never allowed to get hot - this occurred over the course of 2-3 hours.

Yesterday (Friday), I replaced the VX-6 with a Trijicon 3-9 I had on hand (had to run to MIdway to get 1" mounts). Gun shot great, after 2 shots it was dead center 2.5" high at 100 yds for me. Turned it over to her, and three shots and a couple of small adjustments for her liking and she was set.

Called Leupold, they said send it in, so I did. We'll see how this turns out.

bludog,

Unfortunately we have had the same experience with our VX6. It was sent to Leupold three times. The last time it was there since last August. According to the info sent with it was completely rebuilt. It would not hold zero and the adjustments were very erratic just like yours.
We have no confidence in this scope at all. Great optics are worthless without reliability.


Lefty C

That is not good news. I bought this before their big discounts and I sure don't want to be out over $1k for a useless scope. Hopefully, it will come back reliable. Thanks for the response.

You screwed up. With Leupold, you never, ever touch the windage adjustment unless you have a lot more time, patience, and ammo.

Yeah, it was her idea, I did have some reservations, but like she said "A thousand dollar scope should be able to be adjusted". Hard to disagree with that.

That sucks, bludog. Someone termed the phrase "Leupold shuffle", which you described above. Funny, but not for those that experience it, especially with a scope that costs that much. Many people here have mentioned/speculated that the erector spring(s) in the Leupo scopes are either weak, break, or slip. Your experience would seem to be in line with that thought.

When I asked about Leupo zero retention and tracking, there were five reports of failures with the VX-6. One by Jimmyp, two by GregW, and two by Beretzs. Now add Leftycarbon and yourself, and that is seven reports in the Campfire community. I don't know what the failure rate is of these scope, but it still makes one wonder if there is a design issue, component quality, or some other problem.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

I’ve sighted in a lot of rifles for people and I’ve experienced this inaccurate leupold adjustments to the point that I quit useing leupolds years ago.

The elevation seems ok on my scopes. Windage is a crapshoot at best particularly with older M8 scopes. After hunting season, I am going to start sending my 6x42 scopes back en mass to address the tracking issues. We'll see what happens.

Careful Calvin, you're going to get the fan boys all riled up.

Possibly, but he is correct.

All these problems will be resolved when they start having them made in China.😜

Nothing is improved by being made in China, it is just cheaper.

Just to be sure, these are the VX6's they cleared out a year or so ago correct? Or the newer HD version? They have different internals.

I am a fan boy...(grin)

What has changed, in terms of internal components or design?

I'm just going by looks. Not sure on tech details. They come with a zero stop/lock feature now too.

On my first trip to Africa, my Leupold had shifted a few inches during travel and when adjusted did the typical Leupold inconsistent tracking thing. I got a sense that it made my PH really nervous about my shooting in that it took eight or so shots to make a 4" adjustment.

Could a baggage handler F up any scope though?

Okay, if not better, then funnier.🤡

This is very disappointing. Very.

As much failure that is reported just on this site, I can't believe people still buy Leupold, no matter the price point.

I can understand that RHutch. Flip side is I've taken mine to Africa 3 times now. Never had to make the first adjustment, as rifle has survived the baggage goons, getting the hell beat out if in the back of the "bakkie", etc. Killed several truck loads of deer and aoudad with it....same story. Seems like roulette to me.

I could never trust a Leupold and would never take one to Africa. You have balls.

Nah. Never had a hunter show up in camp with Leupy problems either....about 100 of them so far. These guys can buy whatever they want. It obviously happens, not denying that.

The erector system is the same.









Get a scope that was built as an aiming device first, pare it with a mounting system that is built for abuse and watch all the "baggage handlers messed my zero up" nonsense go away.

I'm still not convinced.

Reality isn't for everyone I guess.

Yup, You believe there are scopes out there impervious to smashing force. Give me a [bleep] break

Should have taken him 1 or 2 shots to make the adjustment back, not 8. It does make zeroing your rifle an adventure though. You'd think you could take a shot, walk up with a tape measure, make the necessary adjustments and you will be zero'd. Nope.

Just my experience, but when I adjust a Leupold I shoot three shots after it. It often ends up 1 out 2 in....then I'll make adjustments from the 2 in as needed. Once set, they've been good, but adjustments for Leupolds aren't a 1 shot deal in my experience. Leupold made me a fan of the LRD reticle in a fixed scope.......out of necessity.

You're not going to get an argument out of me. Leupolds are a mediocre optic with a great warranty. Used it a number of times in the past myself. Ditched them all but one and that sits on a CZ 452. Figure it'll take a few rounds with that to shake the internals loose.

Well I'm speaking from a position of experience. You are speaking from ignorance. Your comment was on the line of that no scope could survive baggage handlers. That means in a case. I have flown hundreds of times for work in the last decade plus, and have yet to lose zero with certain brand and models of scopes, and yet consistently see other models and brands constantly losing zero.

In another discussion similar to this one....

Pulled a NF 4-16x F1 off of a rifle. Bore sighted it and shot 5 rounds.





Then did this-



And these are the next three shots from the video added to that group.







I know, it doesn't fit the narritive that Leupolds are as good as anything else. Fact is, they're not. They don't handle side impacts well, they do not track correctly, nor do they return to zero consistently.




This happened at work-




It held zero as it has for the last 4,000 rounds, and 8 flights with baggage handlers.

what mount are you using?

To be clear,

I am not saying that a Leupold VX6 can't be used to kill a deer, or that 100% won't hold a zero well enough to shoot a whitetail at 200 yards.

I am saying, that they have significant problems as an aiming device when used hard, and when dialed. Just as good as, isn't. There are manufactures that put "aiming device" as #1 on their scope priorities.... Leupold doesn't. "Aiming device" isn't even in the top five of Leupold. Things like marketing, glass, cost, profit, weight, and features are. They do this because the vast majority of people don't actually shoot.



If you expect or desire your aiming device to stay zeroed through use, buy a scope that is built for that. If showing up to the range or on a hunt and having your scope fail or lose zero isn't that big of a deal- then there are plenty to choose from.

On which one?

Truth +P

I am soo happy for you and your dented scope. If you hit glass hard enough it will break that is all I was trying to say. Insult me some more if it makes you feel good. I enjoy the laughs.

I guess should have taken photos of the scope that UPS broke. It went a lot less distance than Africa too!

I guess the one in my Africa example took an impact because it was off, but it exhibited pretty inconsistent tracking as did all my Leupolds, impact or not so not totally a baggage handler issue.

The lesson here for me is that it's foolish to spend, say a grand, on a scope that likely won't hold up over time any better than a $200 from the same outfit. For light use, get the $200 one and save the bucks to spend on one or two good ones to go on rifles that get really get used or really need to work. I can't drop big bucks on the scopes that sit on all my rifles, but I can afford one or two good ones.

While you're at it, do you have any experience with Aimpoints? A lot, if not most of the shots I get while hunting could be taken with a red dot. Aimpoints have a good reputation, but I've never seen much about how they hold up over time.

You are correct- I have not seen a reliability or durability difference between the VX-1 and the VX-6.



Aimponts are the best red dots available. Nothing else is even close.

Stop while you are behind. If you are smart, you will just listen and learn something,especially from Form. When in doubt, type less, and listen more.

So what was the total round count ? Any scope can, and do fail. Usually it will be in the first 40-60 rds. I laugh at guys like FormD who try to tell us that Nightforce never fail. Really ? How about the two guys who posted their annoyance with Nightforce because they suggested to them they might not want to send in their scopes for minor repairs due to their six month backlog ?
As far as Leupolds holding up, I've had several of them take hard falls on the desert rocks where I hunt and have never had to rezero one. Yes, I've busted a couple of reticles. All of them were old, well used scopes. None of them were high dollar tactical scopes.
Most here apparently don't understand that there are many grades or levels of Leupold scopes. So learn what the differences are and pick one that fits your needs. For instance, my FX2, 4X are a bit touchy to adjust the windage. But my VX-R Patrol, my VX2 Scout and my Fx3 6X42 are not. Move as they should, up, down, left or right wherever I ask them to. No, I don't twist them to their limits. I'd buy a tactical model with steel guts, and twin springs if that's what I needed.
Or you can believe that Leupolds are junk/unreliable and the military uses so many of them because "the fix is in." E

Form
Not to hijak the thread,but our Aimpoint red dot in the helicopter (predator hunting) loses zero after a while. Its on an AR. I suspect the constant vibration from the helicopter. Thoughts? Have checked mounts ect. Its usually off a couple inches at 100yds after maybe 15 to 20 hrs of flying.

The trijicon 1-8 thanks.

Is that a certain model though,or do they just have the one model in a 1-8?

I'm interested in buying well made scopes too.

That is my experience as well.

x3, doing a single shot sight in will have you doing the leupold shuffle across Texas.

Spend a lot of time in helo's.


What model Aimpoint, mount and how is it mounted?








It's a Bobro Dual lever Precision mount. In general I do not like QR mounts due to numerous issues with movement. I prefer hard mounting the optic to the gun with a riser and normal rings, or with a NF Unimount or Geissele Super Precision mount.. Having said that, the dual lever Bobro has been the best QR I've used.

But, but it's got an excellent warranty....

I think that you have asked about the Trijicon 1-8x before?

If so, that one has a bit more than 4,000 rounds on it, adjusts correctly, and returns to zero correctly so far.

200-300 mils dialed between shots-



1.5" dot. Gun is a 1.6-1.7 MOA shooter with that ammo for ten rounds.

The other that we have is a MOA model and has just shy of 4,000 rounds on it. Performance has been identical- that is to say perfect..... so far.

Not sure, I will find out. It stays with the helicopter, so I don't have it.

To answer an earlier question, this was one of the original non-HD model VX-6.

Formidilosus,

A list of scopes and mounts that you and your pards recommend (for AR and bolt actions) would be insightful, and I for one would be interested.

Obliged.

Failures or issues with these scopes are extremely rare-


1). Nightforce NXS/ATACR/BEAST

2). Bushnell LRHS, HDMR/DMR, ERS, XRS

3). SWFA SS 6x, 10x, 1-6x, 3-9x, 5-20x

4). S&B fixed 10x PM

5). Hensoldts

6). Older Leupold fixed power Mark 4's/Ultra's



There are a few more, but the above are the major ones and also most suitable for hunting.




As for rings and bases-

1). Any good picatinny rings- NF, Seekins, Badger, Warne Mountain tech, etc. Even the Burris XTR's do well, though they are heavy.

3). Any good picatinny base. Same as above. The big deal is getting a reputable brand and not knock off Chinese junk.

4). For AR's if not doing the riser/pic ring setup- NF unimounts, Geissele Super Precision, etc.

5). If you have to have QR, I'm pretty much in Bobro Dual Lever mode.

6). If for an AR and you are going to do the riser setup, there isn't a perfect answer. Probably the best is the Wyoming Arms riser if you have a stiff enough handguard.





Hope that helps.

Is it worthwhile to upgrade a Leupold M 8 fixed power 6x36 or 8x40 AO to M 1 turrets or should I just stick to the friction dials and get a LR duplex instead? I'm not really a long range hunter but would like the option to shoot to 500 yards or so.

thanks, I move scopes around so I like the idea, I have been using the larue and tightning the nuts after it was on the gun with their wrench until I felt they would not tighten with thumb pressure.

A few years back my buddy and I conducted velocity test on different barrel lengths by cutting the rifle at the range. It was for his website. We started with a Rem 700VS with a Leupold VX6. At first we cut the barrel down by hand and it proved too slow. We ended up using a hacksaw and beat the living snot out of this rifle. We went from 26-16 inches 1 inch cuts. I have to say I was impressed the scope held zero.

I am not a dialer but with my experience twisting just for zero, I'd never trust one for dialing in corrections. The LR Duplex is marvelous in my opinion. The best combination for a set and forget hunting rifle which maybe asked to reach out to 400 yds or so.

the fact this topic is discussed over and over again is proof enough there is a problem.

I would keep them as-is and buy an SWFA 6x or 10x.

Much obliged Formidilosus.

I remember you previously recommended the same list, but after reading about your observations with the Trijicon 1-8 figured I'd ask if there was any other scopes you recommend.

For me, I'm still slumming a few S&B Zenith and Stratos. So far knock on wood they've been fine. But I obviously don't put as many rounds down range and work the sheit out of my gear as you and you're compadres.

The new NF SHV with the Forceplex on first glance appears to be an answer for hunters.

I tried to have Leupold install an LR Duplex in an 8x, and there was an issue - I don’t recall if the reticle wouldn’t physically work in that particular scope or if the subtensions would be way off...have had them tell me both on different scopes and I don’t recall which with the 8x. Anyway, the LR Duplex didn’t work properly with the 8x.

If you get M1s installed, there’s a chance the adjustments won’t be exactly MOA. I’ve had several and the exact amount of adjustment varied by scope. Just had to shoot and see. And the scope still could crap out, don't really trust them for serious dialing.

Long way of saying save your money, leave the Leupolds as they are, especially the old good ones that work correctly, and buy an SWFA 3-9.

Not on the list, though. Does that mean lack of experience with that line, or that it's not in the same league as the NXS and other NFs? It'd be handy to know what lines there's not a lot of experience with, too, so as to not condemn out of ignorance.

I hope Leupold is able to fix it right for you. Your post got me thinking about all my Leupold scopes. I don't think any of them have adjusted predictably. I have never experienced what you have, but they are do not track 1/4" per click at 100 yards. With that said I have always been able to get them where I wanted them fairly easily and they have held zero just fine. Come to think of it, I don't think I have ever had any hunting scope adjust dead on the money. A number of Sightron S-1s, a variety of Weavers, Redfields, Bushnells, Burris. Some are closer than others.


Looking at the list Formidilosus posted, it looks like you have to buy a 20+ ounce scope to get one that works as advertised, and I am not willing to hang that much weight on a walk-about hunting rifle.

My hat is off to FormD. He has the knowledge and expertise and shares it freely. All without calling names and acting like a jackass. A sincere thank you!

The 1-8x Trijicons have been doing well, but I don't like to say that they're "good" until I/we have seen 10k plus rounds on multiple samples.

The NF SHV's work well, and for a "hunting" scope the 3-10x with Forceplex is probably as good as it gets. They are not tested to the absolute abuse levels that the NSX, etc. are tested to, but they are good scopes. For me it's hard to understand why someone would want a scope to dial, but have no good reference for wind/misses....

S&B's tend to work well as hunting scopes in set and forget mode. The PH models are good but have such limited elevation travel as to almost not make it worth it. For low light 0-200 yards, their fixed 6, 7, and 8x models are excellent.









No, not lack of experience- just they have not proven to be literally BOMBPROOF so I did not include them. Having said that, I have NOT seen any issues with the SHV's but like the Trijicon 1-8x's I have not seen enough to outright say that they are golden. I have seen 8-10 with between 500 and around 3,000 rounds on them. So far, so good.


While it'd be hard to do with any scope suitable for dialing/longer ranges- If you want to know what experience that I have with a scope- ask. I do not work for any company, I do not have allegiance to any company (though NF is close because they believe their scopes are aiming devices first), I do not make a dime off of any scope- if NF started to slip, I would be the very FIRST person to call them out.


As I said in that post,!those are the major scopes that have proven to have so few issues as to not be worth mentioning, and the ones most suited to "normal" hunting from muzzle to past 300 yards. If someone has no desire to shoot past 300, then the S&B fixed powers, older Zeiss Diavari fixed powers, and older Kahles fixed power scopes tend to stay zeroed very well.

Hey Form, what are you/y'all doing where you would see 10K rounds with a scope?

I shot in three rifles today with VX III’s. Those tracked fine. Took about 6 or 7 shots apiece. I like my Leupolds

Formidilosus,

I found your statement very interesting: "For me it's hard to understand why someone would want a scope to dial, but have no good reference for wind/misses...."

I started experimenting seriously with longer-range shooting in the 1970's, mostly at varmints but also at big game, because I worked for a couple years as a pronghorn guide who sometimes need to finish off poorly-shot animals. Way back then (which might now be considered the Paleolithic Era) a simple plex-type reticle was an enormous leap over the plain crosshairs common before then. If you knew the subtension between the points of the heavy posts and the center crosshairs, then it was relatively easy to correct for elevation and windage. It wasn't always precise enough for long-range varmints, but worked very well on big game out to 500 yards, or even more--if the shooter practiced some.

Your mention of missing is most interesting, because none of us who used plexes back then (either for ranging or correcting) missed big game very often. I can recall only a couple of mine on big game. One was on a pronghorn wounded by client, which I missed by around 6 inches at around 550--then corrected the hold and killed. That was with a plain plex-reticle in a 3-9x scope. But unlike today, we didn't have laser rangefinders, so limited our shots to around 500.

The other was one of the two biggest caribou bulls I've taken. The range was around 450, estimated again by the reticle, and I'd crawled for quite a way to get within that range, since the wind was very stiff, but consistent. At the shot the bullet splashed maybe 1-2 inches in front of the bull's chest (the rifle was a NULA .30-06 with a 180-grain boattail at about 2800). My mis-judgement occurred because I was too low to the ground, below most of the wind, and could not stand up or he'd spook. The first shot was spot-on for elevation, and the plex reticle allowed a second shot landed in the top of the bull's heart.

If you know the subtension of a plex-type reticle, and have done some practicing, my experience is that wind-holds are certainly close enough for big game out to 500--if you're shooting in conditions where hunters who wouldn't even consider shooting over 500 might consider trying. (Varmint shooting is something else, where windage and elevation hashmarks are very useful, even well under 500 yards.)

But a blown wind-call is one thing. Within 400-500 yards, missing a big game animal high or low enough to require reticle reference marks for "correction" seems a little chancy, because the shot could just as easily be a wound instead of a miss.

This is why I'm sort of baffled by so many new plex reticles with the heavy posts so far toward the edges of the field of view that they might as well be thin crosshairs. But with plex-posts subtending 5-6 inches of the center crosshairs at 100 yards, I never had much difficulty holding (or correcting) for wind out to 400-500.

That's fair and appropriate, and what I was asking for. Thank you.

Thanks to all who took the time to answer my question, appreciate it.

Apologies, somehow I missed your question. I think PG answered about the issues with adding turrets and trying to dial it. You can certainly do it, but you're 50/50 on it working out or not. If you are adaement about staying with those scopes, I would see if they will install a mildot or TMR reticle in it and hold for everything. Otherwise the SWFA SS 6x42mm with MQ reticle is solid and it runs $299.








Mule Deer,

You are obviously correct that using the subtension on a duplex works, but it's a work around for a reticle not designed to be used that way. If I had a scope with a duplex I would certainly use it for that, but if I am buying a new scope with the intention of shooting past 300 yards it does not make sense to not choose a reticle with logical, consistent wind marks. Figuring out and then using the 4.7 MOA gap to the post is a WHOLE lot less intuitive than having a reticle with unobtrusive ticks every 2 MOA. Even simpler is working in mils. No one that I have ever shot with or taught has ever wanted to go back to either MOA or reticles without consistent unintuitive marks for windage and elevation. Had a brand new girl today that has never shot a rifle running the elevation and holding wind like a champ with no help inside of two hours. Give her the range, she dials. Give her the wind, she held and hit. Easy peasy. With a duplex we would still be talking about "left half a gap", "right 2.2 gaps"..... 🤢


Not saying it can't be done, I am saying that no one would want a speedometer that only had 47mph on it....

As I have stated before,I think the mil quad reticle is the best hunting reticle available if holding for wind. Had my boys shooting in a 10mph wind yesterday at 400 yds. Both shot well. My youngest shot a 5 shot 3" group just slightly off the2" bullseye. This was prone in the dirt. Tikka 243 swfa 3x9 He is 11.Dial elevation, hold wind. We pack in to hunt deer this week. They better watch out.

To add to what Form is saying- practicing with tools that allow more precise corrections for misses leads to more precise holds and more precise learning, which leads to less misses while hunting. So it’s not so much about being able to call super precise corrections for misses while shooting BG, but more about practicing in such a way, and with tools that make misses on BG even less common.

To continue the speedometer analogy, if I practice on the track with a regular speedometer, I may figure out that I can take a certain corner at 68 mph without losing control of the car. When it comes time for a race, I’ve practiced taking that corner at 68 mph so many times that it’s instinctive. It’s much more difficult to practice taking the corner with that level of precision when the speedometer only has one mark on it at 47 mph. When race day comes I’d be less likely to make that corner with precision if I had practiced simply by gut instinct using multiples of 47 as my guide.

Formid,

Thought that's what you'd say. Thanks for the confirmation.

Thanks, appreciate your help.

The last thing I want is a fat heavy 30mm scope on a hunting carry rifle. I also would not want a busy cluttered up reticle.


You can hunt out to 500 yards with a duplex reticle.

I think this is a very important point, as "shoot-able" wind is different than shooting under any and all conditions with a duplex.

For example, I've seen beginner dudes shoot well out to 300 yards with a 10 mph full value wind, using a duplex reticle. And with a 5 mph wind, they do OK at 400 - 500 yards. These are fairly mellow wind speeds, for those distances.

However, if it's howling and variable, those with graduated reticles (moa or mil on the horizontal) tend to do better. But, under those conditions, I think many would second guess the shot, on game. So for the hunters, the duplex may not be a handicap... since they won't be taking shots on game under conditions where the precision reticles excel. It's under the more difficult situations where tactical style reticles really become a big advantage.

Perhaps you're mistaking the SS 6x MQ for a NF BEAST with Horus reticle?

You can hunt out to 500 yards with a Sharps and a good peep sight, too, but that doesn't make it the best tool for the job...

Just to compare the big fat heavy 3-9 SWFA scope to a light trim 3.5-10 Leupold on Kimber Montana's...

If I could get my money back out of the M1 dial and Zero stop, I'd have another 3-9 SWFA and probably will in another month or so.

Gosh Damnit! I'm gonna have to chitcan my Leupolds and go NF across the board if this chit keeps up!

Thanks for the info just the same.

Most of us probably shouldn't be shooting at game with a wind much past 10mph past 400 yds.The drift is a lot more than people realize. And the changing wind speeds is really challenging. A slight wind change can mean the difference between hitting in front of the diaphragm, and behind it.

Amen. I believe most people aren't qualified to shoot that far at game anyway, much less with wind problems.

I'm very likely not as good of a shot as Mule Deer, but we were dumping game at those 4-500 yd distances way before hashes, dots, and dialing turrets became popular. Since the early '70's actually. With duplex reticles as MD described. Also did the 3" high at 100 thing....worked great too.

No problems here...yet. I guess I got lucky, all my Leupolds have never given me any trouble. Granted I may not use them as hard as some.

What I figured out is a 308 loaded to dupe the old Lake City match ammo speed/trajectory and a standard duplex 6x scope will do 99% of what I need to be doing.

The best practice for shooting in the wind -- for me -- is prairie dog shooting. I often bring my deer rifle or my elk rifle out prairie dog shooting. I just can't get that kind of practice at a range.

Each of our hunting experiences are different. I don't often see a deer (elk yes) standing broad side at 550 yards. But even with a summer's fun shooting at PD's (with lots of practice) and thinking that I probably could get a killing shot at 550 yards, I won't do it. (PD shooting and antelope hunting is much more alike than deer or elk with PD's.)

Part of the issue is terrain. In the areas where I see/hunt elk, well it doesn't look like where I shoot PD's. Where I often hunt deer, farm ranch country the terrain is different to. But where I hunt deer I feel much more confident on hitting the Kill zone than where the elk are at longer ranges. Example, I'm sitting/standing in a tree covered area. I see elk across the meadow or ravine in the far trees. How can I judge the wind in such conditions?

I'm afraid to say how far my furthest shot at deer was taken (successfully) but that was many years ago (about 50), when my favored deer rifle was an 03 and it had a 4x Weaver scope. Let's just say, I got in a vehicle and drove to the dead deer.

My 700 ADL 300 WM with 180 grain partitions is sighted in 1.5" high at 100 yards, at 250 yards that hits about 2" low, at 300 yards it hits about 5.5" low. (300 yards is my absolute maximum range for shooting big game). That 300 WM shoots 1 MOA, at 300 yards that is close to a 3" grouping. At a 10 mph cross wind the drift is about 5 1/2" at 300 yards. It's about 16 1/2" with a 30 mph cross wind. If the wind is gusty, if the wind is close to 30 mph, the maximum range I'd shoot lowers -- with a 30 mph cross wind the drift at 200 yards is 7" approximately. So -- maximum distance for me is more about wind than it is about elevation, cause I just can't judge the wind in ravines/meadows etc. especially when I'm out of the wind.

I think the duplex reticle has enhanced my ability to hit things at long distances. But I'm not going to buy a scope that has a range finder built inside, especially one that adjusts elevation depending on range. I'm not going to have a dial on my scope that changes elevation setting -- once it's sighted in, it stays. And I do not want gadgets that can fail nor do I want to rely on gadgetry for my hunting. If that's what floats your boat, that's ok, it's just nothing I would do.

Similar for me, and that's why I often don't even load my 308's wide open.

Have you used any of the SS classic 3x15x42? I have had decent luck so far with one failure (the parallax knob broke in shipping). Would like to hear your experience if any.

So if you see the buck of a lifetime at 315 yards on the last day of the season with fading light and no way to close in, do you walk away?

My similar meant similar range. If I can hold steady then at 315 he's going to catch a well placed bullet. But at 415 he's safe from me because I don't get to shoot enough at such distances to be comfortable. I may be able to train up to it, but right now IMO I have no business taking shots that are routine for you Pat.

My hats off to a guy who knows his limits.

It's more about shooting "in conditions" when cleanly taking a game animal is at stake. Aiming and distance aren't too problematic by themselves.

I am one of the people who really likes the SWFA reticle for range work, but who dislikes it as a hunting reticle. I am also one who cannot understand fondness for plain duplex reticles (nor the abhorrent BDCs, but that's for another thread).

Would it really be that tough to put evenly-spaced windage mil hashes on what amounts to a duplex reticle? You have to put them in the first focal plane if the scope is a variable, though.

OTOH, perhaps I would dislike the SWFA quad less as a hunting reticle in their 3-9, because the too-fine, non-illuminated center-to-lower section may no longer be too fine with a zoom ratio of only 3x, rather than the 5x on my 3-15. It is always said that the 3-9 is made by someone different than the maker of the 3-15 and fixed-x classics. I would like to get away from the crudity of their *****-made scopes.

Not because of the added range, but maybe because finding it might be tricky in the dark. Unlike TV hunters, I don't shoot stuff planning to "come back tomorrow" to find it. Part of my personal ethics is not taking a shot if I can't check out the results. The type of cover nearby would be a big factor, and here in the East, property boundaries can be a problem as well.

A guy hunting the same farm as I did last year took a running shot on a nice 10-point last year with his ML. Rather than check out his shot properly and track it, he just folowed along in a general way, searching the woods here and there, and then gave up. I found the buck a couple weeks later (the reason I know it was a nice 10-point). Foolish shot, and poor sportsmanship because he didn't do his job after the shot.

The 3-9 HD has the same reticle as the 6x scope. Both are much bolder than the classic 10x. Not sure which one the 3-15 has in it.

I do have 2 VX6 scopes, one has the CDS dial installed, the other does not. Both have worked fine for me but I still prefer the super chickens.

I elected not to shoot this big buck a couple of years ago for the reasons you just mentioned. He was "only" 350 yards away, a chipshot for the ol' 7mm Rem Magnificent.