Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire So, if an honest citizen steps up and

Dave, here's the curve ball; if he was that afraid, why didn't he leave?

That wouldn't have neutralized the threat posed to others still there. You are privileged in the law to neutralize threats to innocent others, too, not just yourself.

Technically, the cops are under no obligation to "confront someone bent upon murder" either.

Yeah, the Supreme Court ruled they have no legal obligation to do that, but politically they are given that mission by their superiors, i.e., if a cop just routinely ran away in the face of danger, rather than advancing towards it to neutralize it, they'd likely soon find themselves out of a job.

Maybe the lives he feared for were not his own but those of the other concert goers. I say assuming the guy doesn't get capped by the police, or bludgeoned to death by a panicked crowd he would fair pretty well in most any court.

But since you want to question unlikely hypothetical's I've got one. What if the parking lot were full. Guy with deer rifle has to park in front of a school down the street. So in the process of retrieving rifle and saving everyone he walks past a school (gun free zone) with a gun!!!!! I don't think you come back from that!!

Re: Hawkeye:

Good! Now we are getting to the heart of the debate. At some point, is Sam also now "obligated" by law to help protect others then? Like the "Good Samaritan law" when you drive past an accident? Is this a remote parallel?

And others.





Clark

You're getting pretty granular in regards to local laws or ordinances.

But in general, the likelihood of being criminally charged after using force to save others is close to zero in this country.






Clark

ok. admittedly I am in some respects but I am very curious about this topic of self protection in this day and age. Times have gotten very confusing, not just legally but socially, and trying to know how the dice will fall, in advance in a situation like this, is very ... unpredictable. It would be nice if these things were a bit more black and white, legally speaking. Or perhaps a better term would be, carved in granite?

The 1990 Federal Act to which you refer only "prohibits any unauthorized individual from knowingly possessing a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone." So, if you are authorized by any other state law to be in possession, the Act is nullified. Also, absent the above, you must have reason to know it's a school zone. But most importantly, the legal doctrine of necessity overrides any law which stands in the way of necessary actions. The classic example is a sign that says "Federal Law Prohibits Swimming In This Lake," but you see a drowning child in the middle of it. In that case, you are privileged by the doctrine of necessity to disregard the law for the purpose of saving said life.

The Doctrine:

Necessity:

"A defense that permits a person to act in a criminal manner when an emergency situation, not of the person's own creation, compels the person to act in a criminal manner to avoid greater harm from occurring." Source

You're taking a human life so the aftermath is never not going to be dicey.

Personally, I wish Charleston Heston scratched a couple of those rules off the tablets before he Birkenstocked his ass down that mountain. But it is what it is.




Dave

No, it's a legal privilege, not a legal obligation.

that said Hawkeye, is that a constant in the USA, or just FL?

Cooper,

It's not black and white. You're not going to find any specific rulings because it has never happened.

But ask yourself this, if the passengers of Flight 93 pulled the heads off of the onboard terrorists and averted disaster, do you think they'd be charged?




Dave

Legal privilege and obligation intertwine. You can stop to render aid at a car wreck, and most would, but the obligation is to not exceed your training. I can do (rusty) CPR, heimlich, but am not qualified or trained to do a tracheotomy for instance. Same for bleeding.

So a good samritan would not be charged in very many places for using a firearm.

I know almost everyone on here has a long history of gunfighting, and knows about adrenaline, shakiness from exertion, and all. And every one of us can calmly hit a target so small we can barely make it out at astounding distances. Beanfield rifles and PSAC notwithstanding, it would be a different ballgame.

It is improbably at best to have an opportunity, and even less likely to be successful. You would not be charged.

Greater specificity in your question would have been helpful, but the defense of defense of others exists in every state in the United States. It varies only on one major point, and that's whether or not the defensive shooter is placed by the courts in the shoes of those he's defending or only his own shoes. In other words, in some states you are required to have made a perfect judgment as to whether the person you're defending himself had the legal privilege of lethal force in self-defense, while in other states (most of them) the defense is valid so long as you reasonably believed that to be the case, even if it turns out you were wrong.

Example: You're walking on a city sidewalk, and you turn the corner to see what looks to you like someone putting a serious beat down on someone else with a crow bar. You draw and fire. Turns out, the guy putting the beat down on the other was the intended victim of a mugging, who only just then had managed to turn the tables on him and gain control of the bludgeon. In some states, you are out of luck, because your judgment (though perfectly reasonable) was in error. In other states, the courts will only inquire into whether your assessment of the situation was reasonable, i.e., whether the ordinary and prudent person in your shoes would have come to the same conclusion you did.

PS There are also burden of proof differences between states, i.e., does the state have the burden of proving you didn't have the defense (and what level of burden), or are you burdened to prove that you did have the defense (and what level of burden)?

" I can do (rusty) CPR, heimlich, but am not qualified or trained to do a tracheotomy for instance. Same for bleeding."

If you don't know how to stop or slow down bleeding you need to take some first aid classes. You should also learn how to splint broken bones if you are a hunter.

LOL.

That happened in 60s of last century at University of Texas Austin where bunch of people engaged the shooter allowing police to get to him and to stop him. I think your country is too far gone for repeat of something like that.

NRS 200.120