Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Neck Sizing vs FL Sizing

Probably no difference between the bullet seating dies of RCBS, Redding, or Lee. Neck sizer is the key to the deal IMO.

Yup. I haven't found any accuracy issues with FL sized brass, but I have found partial or neck sized brass that requires extra effort to chamber.

As I'm not a competitive shooter I'm partial to rounds to chamber easy peasy every time and will suffer a group opening up an RCH or two.

Makes sense to me.

CJ,

Just to clarify it is the lee collett neck die that you do not use lube on the neck of the case. Most other type of neck sizing dies do call for the use of lube.

The most important part in all of this is having fun and doing whatever works for you. 😀



Best wishes
Trystan

No, that is not the case. It doesn't "lose elasticity". Cold working doesn't have that effect. What does occur with cold working is a rise in yield stress and hardness, and a reduction in ductility. The Modulus of Elasticity (Young's Modulus) is unaffected, but the increase in YS actually extends the elastic range..

What in fact typically happens when the case is first fired is that it expands elastically, obeying Hooke's law, until the stress is enough (in the area forward of the case web) to exceed the yield stress. You get some plastic deformation, filling the case out to seal against the chamber walls during the pressure peak. As the pressure reduces the elastic component of the strain is recovered, and the case reduces in size accordingly, leaving a clearance between it and the chamber walls.

Now, if you only neck size, the next time the case is fired it expands elastically until it meets the chamber walls. There's no room for any plastic deformation, and after firing the elastic strain is again recovered. No more cold working is taking place, other than in the case neck itself (as a result of neck sizing). Each time you fire it you'll get the same elastic recovery, the same as you'll get the same elastic recovery of a spring (provided you don't over stress it) over and over again.

If instead you FL resize to minimum, then on the next firing there is again both elastic strain (which is recovered) and plastic strain, the latter leading to strain hardening (work hardening) of the case body in the area ahead of the web, and more plastic deformation and of course work hardening when you size it back down again, and the more you do this the more work hardening you'll get.



Once again,if this is occurring it is likely to be a product either of a case which is bulged or otherwise made unsymmetrical by reason of the way it was fireformed, or as a result of something you've done in the reloading process. A case which is evenly fireformed, and which has nothing done to it, will always fit into the chamber it came from, and will have clearance arising from elastic recovery. I don't just base that on theory either, as I said: I have batches of brass which has been fired 30 or more times without full-length sizing, in a range of case types and in a range of firearm types. The point is that if you are having difficulty chambering your loaded rounds after your reloading process, it might be worth considering why that is happening, rather than simply saying "because it loses elasticity" or some such nonsense.

I like my cases to chamber reliably too, both for competition and for hunting. I certainly haven't had any issues arising out of neck sizing in this regard. I have had issues arising out of FL sizing, including case separations directly attributable to it, but that was a bit of a special case. I've also had the odd other difficulty in chambering rounds attributable to the reloading process, such as difficulties attributable to partial sizing (as opposed to neck sizing) pushing shoulders forward and variations in case length causing bulges at the case mouth on crimping. These things are sent to try us!

I should probably add that if the application's critical, or if I change a parameter, I test the ammunition to make sure that it can be relied upon to feed, chamber and otherwise function.

dry mica lube only on my bushing neck dies.........

Lee seater..........all the same

I stand by my own response of sometimes.
Answers will vary with different experiences.
Answers will vary with different firearms. Many will report that actions like the SMLE or the extremely well made Schultz and Larsen in say 7x61 Sharpe and Hart cartridge work better with cartridges full length resized or at least shoulder bumped more often than necessary with front locking actions.

Stress measurements indicate the action changes and maybe changes back in the course of shots fired. It's been suggested the nine locking lugs of a Weatherby Mark V do not bear evenly when the rifle is new but the lugs may setback from firing including proof loads until enough do bear evenly and setback slows or even stops.

Sometimes in some rifles with some loads the bolt has to be pounded open. Sometimes the bolt opens easily with loads known to produce more pressure than desirable. Softer cases, Federal long ago omitted a bunting step and produced cases with soft heads that expanded on one firing and gave rise to complaints when folks went to reuse them, may give problems harder cases don't. Harder cases may give problems softer cases don't.

Time was cases branded as Everlast could be bought and mostly did last a good long time. The dreaded doughnut is a real phenomenon.

Simple answers in paragraphs leave a lot unsaid. For the unsaid portion a more complete answer can be found by reading a number and variety of books on the general topic.

There's more I'd suggest who'd say the opposite, that FL sizing is to be avoided, and that neck sizing is the key to decent case life in SMLEs and other Lee Enfields. FWIW these rifles are still pretty popular here, and are used in service rifle competition, amongst other things, and there's a fair sort of consensus on this.

Gone almost totally to neck sizing for bottle neck cartridges here. Exceptions are handgun and other straight walls like the 45-70.

This is my observation since reloading from 1975. I knew nothing when I started and observed yearly. I also bought AND read many sources on sizing.

Jerry

458 L - I respect you & your contribution here in the fire.

Now that said, My experience is definitely diff from yours per PFL sizing.

I shoot all my reloads w/PFL sizing including BLRs ( some say have little primary extraction )

I currently have Rem Model Sixes (pumps) in 6mm Rem, 270 W, & 30-06 plus I had a Rem 760 in 35 Whelen (custom chamber)
In PROPERLY adjusted dies P F L sizing works perfectly --- For ME.

NOTE : I am meticulous in adjusting the sizing dies.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying my rounds chamber very easy/smoothly.

Jerry

More like given a SMLE using something like a Wilson gauge figure the headspace on the case not the rim in a given chamber, and adjust the dies accordingly. Bearing in mind that a variety of bolt heads and other such have been used over the years to adjust the headspace on the rim and then so long as a condition of excess headspace on the case is not created then the defects of case stretch associated with excess headspace on the case shoulder are indeed avoided.

On the other hand the stretch of a SMLE and other rear locking actions is beyond dispute. With Indian guns in 7.62x51 and other full power loads, which the shooter may wisely choose to avoid but some like frex to explore the so called self compensating effect the action will indeed stretch and cases will indeed be short lived because shoulder setback is indeed necessary to rechamber in the same chamber. The world is full of special cases and exceptions. Pope is reported to have reused the same case tens of thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of times. Bob Hagel most certainly exceeded elastic limits of some good steel rifle chambers with his techniques.

Consider such posts as
........... AFAIK his books are still available and like John Barsness are able to go on at lengths impractical on this board but necessary for adequate and still imperfect coverage.

You could pretty well find duplicates of the current discussion on full length or neck sizing searching on this or many another board for weaker actions like Savage 99 and rimmed cartridges like .30-30 or .303 Savage.

My point again and always in this thread is it has never been settled and never will be because it depends. It's worthwhile expanding options, it's unwise to decide there is one perfect always and forever way.

The only thing that I would add to that article now is to use Lee collet dies. They are easier on case necks than using conventional expanders. Collet dies weren't on the market when that was written.

On a personal note, I use collet dies for two other reasons. They are faster and cases don't require clean up.

I partial full length resize as Mule Deer has explained it many times here and in publication. My brass is earmarked for its specific rifle. I use the Hornady headspacers to make sure I bump back the shoulders to the pre-fired case measurement. I have found my Tikka 6.5CM is very particular with this as the Kimber 6.5 CM has a little leeway.
If I recall this was true with the WSM's "back in the day" and I believe it is a function of the 30*/35* shoulder angle. A couple of times I had to "cam over" during re-sizing to ensure easy chambering.

Here's where all of this "bumping shoulders back, etc" loses on me, and admittedly I'm no expert. I will attempt to ask a question if my feeble brain can translate things to my fingers.....


Given you have a proven load, and given you have fireformed brass, and given you use neck sizing dies (Lee specifically). If when you fire that round and eject it normally, how is it that you guys find a reloaded round with that exact same piece of brass, difficult to chamber? It comes out of the chamber normally, it should go right back in normally, right? I've obviously never had any issues.

Personally I've seen far more instances where someone full length sizes and then the round wouldn't chamber. Every few months one reads about it on the campfire. I have also heard of occasional full length sized loads that had a misfire problem. Part of that problem IMO is sizing for maximum head space and a primer seated to deep. Neck sized only rounds have less headspace and an accidental deep seated primer is more apt to fire

In over 20 years I have never had a neck sized only round that didn't chamber and fire.
Brass lasts longer than other methods
Accuracy is the same from what I can tell
I don't have to use lube

I see a lot of upsides to neck sizing but I just can't see where the downside is




Trystan

There is no downside to neck sizing for a bolt gun - especially if you have decided that's not what you believe needs to be done.

Neck sizing, along with flash hole uniforming, primer pocket reaming, neck turning, sorting cases by weight and a few others was born years ago, when competitive shooters were trying to get an edge on their opponents. Case prep was one way to reduce group size. That's because QC for ammunition components wasn't as good as it is today.

I believe that those techniques have a place, but when reloading for a hunting rifle, they aren't usually much help. Hunters cannot take advantage of the tiny gains that case prep offers. I say this because hunters do not always have a stable rest, or shoot at targets of a known distance. They may also be physically fatigued. And components - powders, primers, bullets and cases - are better made than years ago.

If you want to carry out extensive case prep, that's fine. I spent many hours uniforming brass and weighing things in order to build a better load, but personally, I never saw any reason for it in the field.

I buy regular primers, Lapua or Norma cases, powder and bullets. When I use Winchester or Remington cases, I give them a visual check for damage, but do not prep them the way I did years ago. I did not see the benefit when I'm reloading. My case prep consists of making sure the case neck is round. I do this by moving an elliptical expander through the neck far enough to round it out, then remove it. To my mind, extensive prep is a waste of time. I would rather be shooting.

This last thing isn't talked about much in shooting, but confidence and satisfaction with your equipment and ammunition - the psychological part of shooting - is important. Some would argue that confidence is more important than uniformed flash holes or runout in the field. You have to believe that prep will help you in the end. That's part of reloading too.

My long winded response can best be summed up this way: Don't bother doing prep unless you feel it's worth it. Don't think that it is necessary just because a few others are doing it. In other words, don't be shamed or pushed into doing something that you don't see any value in completing.

If you want to experiment down the road, go for it. Otherwise, reloading is a hobby. There is no right or wrong way to do it.

Read this, especially mathman's first response.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11980840/1






P

Yep, this is very helpful. Also, Lee makes an undersized mandrel for some of their collet dies. I picked one up for my 7x57. There's not much need for a crimp die after that.