Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Backpack Hunting Warmest puffy?

I own a bunch of puffy jackets. Most are pretty thin with the goal of being very small/packable. Yesterday, I hunted in 20-30 degree temps and was cold in the AM after ~ 1.5 hours. My legs/feet were fine, my upper body was cold which is weird for me. Admittedly I underdressed a bit for the occasion. I wore a merino base layer, Kuiu Kenai, and a Kuiu Guide. I discovered the Kenai isn't as warm as I thought. I'm looking at Kuiu Super Down but thought I'd throw it out to you'se guys. Warmest puffy that is packable - it will ride in/on my pack except to sit.

Thanks.

"Warmest" is a big topic, but the Montbell Alpine Light is a good one... https://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=25010&p_id=2301263&gen_cd=1

Duluth Trading Puffin hooded is pretty warm.

Figure out how many oz of down fill yours has, how much warmer you want to be, and go from there. Montbell Alpine Light or Mirage are good warmer puffy's for the $. If money is no object you can get Goosefeet Gear to make you whatever you want.

I wear an Arc'teryx Atom AR and think it's great.

https://www.arcteryx.com/us/en/shop/mens/atom-ar-hoody

Sitka Kelvin Down Hoody... All I hunt in anymore.

Patagonia Fitz Roy jacket or parka

Lots of choices here. One that is extremely warm for the weight is the Rab Neutrino down puffy. 250gr of 800? goose down. Not water proof, but quite water resistant in my experience.Packs down pretty small for the warmth, and lofts right back up when you unpack it. Weighs around 20oz. MSRP is 375$ but you can find them for as little as 225 bucks. Love mine.

First light

Have two...town one and hunt one.

LC

Montbell thermawrap parka is pretty ok
Patagonia DAS for when the wheels fall off.

I don't own any down at the moment - all my puffy's are synthetic. For comparison, I have a Kuiu Kenai, First Lite Uncompaghre, Browning Primaloft. The Browning is the warmest but is quite bulky.

What you guys think of this down puffy:

http://www.ems.com/ems-men%E2%80%99s-feather-pack-hooded-jacket/2031194.html?ab=20161010_featherpack_shop_mens_hooded

On a related note, one of the issues I have is wanting a good outer layer and then have the puffy underneath where it’s protectd from weather, branches, etc.. The issue is having an outer layer large enough to not compress the puffy and keep it from doing its job effectively. Really like my DCS Guide jacket with that one exception. Either get a larger one, wear puffy on outside or look for other solutions.

I solved the issue to a certain extent with purchasing Cabela's Passage Jacket. Primaloft insulation and Windshear protective barrier and a stuff sack.

Good topic

It use to be that western mountaineering was mentioned a lot , did they campaign for hilary or something ?

A vest and down hat work well .

What's the warmest, most packable, puffy pant to go with the puffy jacket?

Been looking at those too..........

First Lite makes Uncompaghre pants, Kuiu super down pants, and few others. I used to have a pair of fleece wader pants that worked well - at least until I 'donated' them in Kansas City.

I love my first lite puffy..

Been pretty happy with my Sitka Kelvin Lite puffy. Little noisy for stand hunting but definitely warm. Hoping it quiets down a little with use.

What temps are you looking for and what are the conditions? Do you want to be able to wear it while moving, or is it for putting on after you hike to a glassing spot where you will be sitting still for hours?

I'm following this even though I don't backpack hunt! I mainly stand hunt for whitetails, but do tend to walk quite a bit in and out.

I typically layer. Merino next to skin, fleece midweight top and bottom, lightweight down top, then a wind proof fleece outer layer top/bottom. I really like the Berber type fleece as an outer layer. I want something as quiet as possible and nothing binding.

I'm anxious to read more of your comments. I like puffy's, but want them to work well with something over them. Hadn't found one quiet enough yet to wear as an outer layer. Still learning...

I have 2 purposes for a warm puffy - one is eastern treestand hunting, mainly in NW PA; temps from 10 to 40. Sitting all day even when its 30 degrees requires more clothes than one would think. The other purpose is mountain hunting in the east and west. In elk season (late October), temps are mostly 10 to 40 but I normally hike in 2-3 miles and climb 500-1500 feet. I need a puffy layer for those 2-3-4 hour stands/glassing sessions. I'm less concerned about the mountain hunting because of the movement involved, a guy can always move around a bit if he gets cold, plus I have a few different puffys to use depending on the temps/activity. Not so with the TS hunting.

As a side note, I've always defaulted to synthetic insulation for the sweat/wet factor. Once down gets wet, its next to useless. But synthetic isn't nearly as warm as down, nor as packable. I posted my question here because the guys here are always up on the latest and what works/doesn't work.

Had all my stuff stolen in October - almost every single thing I own related to hunting, backpacking, camping. I've used this incident as an opportunity to explore new gear. I've found some I really like, some not so much.

Some of the best things I've found:

Crispi boots - now own 3 pairs
Kuiu Peleton 240 hoodie
Kuiu Ultra merino 210 hoodie
Nemo Fillo backpack pillow

Like you, I wear merino wool base layers (Ice Breaker 260 to be exact) but have gone to the Kuiu Ultra merino 210 hoodie as a next layer. This set up is usually all I wear when hiking into treestands or in the mountains even when its fairly cold. I've used alot of fleece of varying thickness and like it alot but it doesn't provide the warmth as some of the synthetics and down. Also like you, I haven't found nirvana yet with a good insulating layer. I bought a FL Uncompaghre puffy and a Kuiu Kenai. The FL is warmer but has a 'plastic' like exterior and rustles a bit too much for my liking. The Kenai is very quiet and breathes but isn't as warm or packable as I'd like. I'll keep both pieces as they have a place. I did buy the EMS down hooded jacket I posted a couple posts back. We'll see how that works.

For an outer layer, I've been using a couple. As a default for TS hunting and especially if precip is in the forecast, I've been wearing a Rivers West Ambush jkt/pants. This isn't for walking around - they are way too warm and bulky for much walking. I also wear Kuiu Guide jkt/pants over base layers if temps are not cold and if I'm walking/hiking. They are a good compromise - not the quietest, not the warmest, but a very good overall compromise. This weekend, I found a good sale and ordered a FL Woodbury jkt and North Branch bibs. I have the FL Sanctuary coat/bibs but it needs to be really cold to wear that outfit. My concern with the FL stuff is longevity. The exterior is very quiet but I'd bet I could wreck it in a day or two of thrashing around in NW PA bear/deer hunting. We'll see how that works out.

Aside from losing my elk season, it has been fun reviewing/buying/trying new gear. I've learned alot from my evaluations and collectively from the 'Fire. Love this place and people. Most of the people any way ................. <G>

I have several, one being the FL version which is pretty good, but when i need real warmth I wear an old Patagonia one with 800 down fill.

I have both a Marmot 900 fill and a Kuiu Super Ultra hooded jacket, both very packable. In real cold which I'm starting to avoid more and more (except for sneaking on coyotes) I wear an outer water- and wind proof shell over these with a fleece gaitor and with a merino base. My trunk, hands and feet rarely give me a problem; it's my head and neck that get cold. But I'm talking -20 WC and below.

Both those items are a bit pricey but what quality isn't anymore. My main, general gripe with some high quality and spendy outer garments are the fine-toothed, plastic zippers some come with.

ETA: my outer shell is not the Ultra "soft-quiet" stuff as I don't bow hunt for whitetails any longer and it is sufficiently quiet for anything else.

Tons of great puffy options if you don't limit yourself to "hunting" brands. I agree it's real tough to beat the Montbell Alpine Light for value.

There is only a couple of puffys mentioned that I or my friends/mates haven't used. With a lot of trial and error almost all of us have come to the same general system/idea. The first is moisture management- we're going to sweat, when we we do we ant to dry out as fast as possible even if sitting still. That means the clothing combination or system must work towards that end. With the right combination of clothes you can go from soaked I sweat to having a completely dry next to skin layer in less than 30 minutes by using your body heat to cook the system dry.
I love merino and hate the way synthetics feel. I started wearing merino base layers within the first year or so of them being available. However after a decade plus of using them heavily, one single digit overcast day two years ago I was done with "warm when wet". Three hours in I was still soaked and nearly hypothermic. Every single person that was wearing merino that day swore that they were done with it. The ones wearing synthetics were completely dry inside of an hour.

Regardless of the region the base system that I use from 60 degrees and below is a silk weight (Patagonia Capaline LvL 1, etc) top as a moisture management layer. It's sole function is to get moisture off of my skin. Over that I wear a light to midweight fleece such as the Arctyrx Fortrez Hoody, Sitka Fanatic, etc. It has to be really cold- sub 20, or really windy for me to wear more than that while I'm moving. If it is really cold than a puffy with Polartec Alpha, windy a wind shirt. Real puffys are for throwing on after stopping to glass, sit, etc. and put it on immediately and a wind shirt or rain too over that, allowing the body heat to "push" the sweat through the layers and away from my skin. From sweated out to dry in single digit temps- 15-20 minutes.

I don't think many suggesting the Kuiu Super Down, FL Uncompahgre, etc. have sat for hours not moving in 10 degree temps. Those puffys are equivalent to a 30-40 degree sleeping bag in insulation at best. The warmest is the Kifaru Lost Park Parka and it is 3.6oz of Climashield Apex which is exactly what their 20 degree sleeping bags use.... The Montball Alpine suggested is a nice puffy but there is no way that it would allow me or anyone I know to sit for hours in 10* temps. At least not without adding a bunch of layers which I hate. I would much rather carry a warmer puffy than carry multiple layers of fleece/merino.


If you are not wanting to wear 2-3 layers of fleece or merino along with a puffy I would suggest you look for jackets with 5oz Climashield or equivalent for synthetics, and 8+ ounces of 800 fill power for down or equivalent. That's a minimum from what I've seen for stationary 10 degree use.


As an aside I have had good service with water treated down using it to cook dry as long as you wear water proof layer or windshirt over it.

Interesting thoughts. Frankly my issue last Friday was exactly that - sweat soaked Merino wool that took too long to dry while 'cooking' under an insulation layer. I like your analogy on base layers 'cooking dry' while stationary. It is spot on. That said, I hate synthetics next to my skin. I may need to revisit synthetics. Thanks for another well thought out post based on experience. I appreciate it.

I get a kick out of all the reccomendations for merino undergarments on this site. You couldn’t give me that junk... I tried it out the first year it became widely about ten years back, then after one season switched right back to Capilene (or its equivalent).

Use patagonia ultralight next to the skin. Washes clean, no odors and can throw away as it's cheap. Ranger hoodie from TAD to keep in the heat and arc'teryx outer layer or US MIL issue goretex to keep dry. F*ck merino.... scratches, stinks, and expensive... not to mention it stays wet. Puffys when wet stay that way.

Found this while doing a bit of research on synthetic vs merino base layers. Interesting.

https://backpackinglight.com/comfort_moisture_transport_wool_synthetic_clothing/

Another good thread cussing/discussing the merits of synthetic vs merino:

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/37947/page/2/#comments

My synthetics get used all day, in cold temps with a lot of perspiration. When back to my tent at the end of a hard day, I'll typically put on a down or synthetic jacket (depending) to warm up. It's amazing how fast the capilene will dry out vs. wool. I despise getting into a down bag with wet clothes, and with nylon I'm dry and good to go. Not so with wool. Ditto pants and long undewear bottoms too...

No problem. Something to look at are the synthetic/merino blends. I have been using First Lite's aerowool base layers and they are showing promise. So far dry times are only a couple minutes longer than comparable synthetics but the hand is merino like. Other than durability which remains to be seen, I would look at them if you're dissatisfied with the dry times of pure merino.

Sounds like my being cheap and too broke to replace the Capilene for merino was kinda forward thinking. Just wish the Capilene of today was like that of old. I liked the slicker stuff better.

I've been rethinking my base layers since Form posted. I moved to Ice Breaker 260 about 3-4-5 years ago. When I sweat, they get pretty wet. I think the issue is drying time after I stop or take a stand. They do seem to dry in the arid west but not so in the humid east. I have some thinner hybrid base layer tops I use when I'm just hiking. One by OR is my fav.

I've looked at the FL aerowool and Kuiu Peleton 130 as options. I'm headed for 3-4-5 days of deer hunting in S TN next week. There will be extensive hiking/climbing. I'm going to test a couple lighter synthetics vs Merino to see what I think.

This sidebar has been interesting.

All good stuff to read. I've used merino wool base layers but do find moisture to be an issue, at least for the tops. As a base layer for the bottoms I have no issue with Merino. My current set of Firstlite is worn out and need of replacement anyway. I think I'll try the aerowool and a Capeline and see what works. Not sure I can really compare what I use for the Rockies in October with the gear used for an eastern treestand. I've found nothing that tests cold gear more than sitting perfectly still in a stand on a breezy cold day in the eastern woods. For that my Cabela's wooltimate pants over kuiu ultra down insulation is quite toasty. I've looked at a similar top combination. The wooltimate is really too heavy for a backpack hunt though.

What are the actual complete layering systems folks are packing for 4-5 days in the Rockies in October?

Silk weight/lightweight base layer top and bottom (Capaline, this year Aerowoll)
Light to midweight fleece hoody (Arctyrx Fortrez Hoody)
Outer breathable pant (FL Kanab, Kuhl, etc)
Puffy jacket and pants (Kifaru Lost Park Parka, and Beyond midweight puff pants)
Wind Shirt thatnis water resistant unless heavy rain showers are likely, then a Goretex/etc top and bottom sized to fit over everything
Beanie




The base system really doesn't change. If I will be moving lots in the 30's or less than a puffy with Polartec Alpha is thrown in. The temp determines what weight/fill the puff pants and top are. Multiple layers of fleece, merino, etc don't add up from a warmth and weight ratio versus just getting a warmer puffy.

Thanks.
Thinking about it, I've concluded I don't have layers that compliment each other. I was often wearing a kuhl sweater I have over FL merino and then a Kuiu DCS Guide over that. Very warm, but I don't think the sweater breathes well enough to work with the merino. A better wicking layer, and then an insulation layer that breathes better (Polartec alpha) would likely serve me well. Maybe Sitka Kelvin Active? Then add a puffy (Kifaru or others) for the really cold glassing.

My system will need to include all that's possibly necessary for 4-5 days at 10k elevation in October.

Base layer (top & bottom) - lightweight Capilene
Mid Layer (top & bottom) - Patagonia R.5 fleece
Microtex pants, shirt, jacket as outwear
Patagonia puffball vest
Cheap (free with Nikon scope) insulated jacket
REI One rain jacket for wind/water
Red Ledge rain britches for wind/water

A combination of the above handles most every western hunt I've been on.

There are some things I'd like to upgrade/replace and I think some of the puffy options would be better than the fleece midlayer I use now. For my eastern deer hunting, I'm not having to cover much ground so cheap cold weather gear gets me by.

Feathered Friends.

Most people seem to be about like that. Lots of clothes, usually quality ones, but none of them really work together. As I said I really try to limit how many layers and actual items I carry and wear.

I care nothing about camouflage for hunting (have killed quite a few deer with a bow on the ground in a tie dyed shirt) and usually choose good mountaineering cloths, however for better understanding of how clothing systems can work for you or against you, any podcast with John Barklow of Sitka is worth listening to. As an aside- I don't wear much of it, if any at all, but Sitka's mountain line is about the only hunting company who's clothing is about on the same level as top mountaineering brands like Arctyrx. Sitka is making really good gear these days.

I don't recall if it is Barklow, but one of Sitka's chief designers used to work for Arc 'Teryx, and it shows in the quality of Sitka's clothing -and in the price, also! 😬

The regular Kuiu Super Down doesn’t have a whole lot of down. I think it’s under 3 oz. The Super Down Pro has 5, and I tested it in single digit temps this year. It did well enough.

The synthetics simply won’t beat 800+ fill down for weight and packability to warmth ratio.

I noticed they weren't very substantial after looking at a couple of them. I did notice the Pro series has alot more down. I was looking for 4.5-5.5 oz down in anything I bought. The one I bought is supposed to have 5+oz of 800+ down. We'll see.

Interesting and very informative discussion.

A question about the layering system some people are using. I have some FL pieces and some Kuiu pieces, but as others have stated, I don't think I am using them as a system correctly. I understand the synthetic layer when using body heat to dry out. My question concerns the mid weight. Are you saying fleece, like the Sitka Fanatic, is better than a merino wool layer, like the Kuiu Ultra Merino or the FL llano? If so, what properties does the fleece have that the merino wool does not?

I like my Kuiu Guide Jacket so hopefully I can still use it in my layering system.

thanks

Yes. Synthetics like fleece for the same warmth/weight absorb almost no water, and dry significantly faster than merino due to merinos ability to absorb water into the fibers. Merino absorbs water into the fibers, while the outside does not. That's why if both a synthetic and merino both get a little damp- the merino will feel drier. The problem is that it takes about twice as long to dry a merino versus a synthetic, and merino is not near as good at drying with body heat going from high activity to no activity.

I swore off synthetics a number of years ago (in favor of merino) - mostly due to their becoming rather odoriferous in a hurry.
But I'm back to synthetic layering for the moisture aspect alone reasoning I'd rather be drier in a hurry than a little smelly.

Formidilosus Thanks for the reply and all I can say is "well crap".

I thought that the easy solution for me was to add a synthetic layer (like the patagonia capiklene crew) under my smartwool or other merino wool layer and be good to go. But I see that is not the case.

So would wearing merino over synthetic totally neglect the benefit of the synthetic?

I've just read the entire thread and none of you has mentioned length, size or color. Being a northern guy, I've got a closet full of feather jackets, but chicken feathers come to mind when they start poking through the seams. The truck has a leather seat but before the bun warmer comes on, it is cold and I want a down puffy that is long enough to cover my butt. Normally I'm a 200# large, but those Chinese guys making my jackets are very small larges, so I can be an XL at their place and if they work at the North Face place, then I'm an XXL! Down compresses and I think that I should error on the big side for range of motion and to keep from compressing the insulating layer. Then color... I've got the bright orange mountain climbing parka and pants that goes in the stuff sack, but I can't wear that outside of my deer stand and if someone wears camo in public, people look at them like they are a terrorist. My parka has a hood, but I'd want one to zip off or be non-existent. Is there such a thing as a long down puffy thing out there that can be used in public and as an outer warm layer in a deer stand?

Don’t give up on your merino wool just yet. While it’s true that synthetics don’t absorb water, I’d much rather have merino if I’m going to be wet due to feel. My Patagonia R1 fleece feels wet and cold when it’s wet. My merino doesn’t. While it’s true the merino dries slower, it’s more comfortable to wear. So you have to decide what is best for the situation. If I’m day hunting and mostly hiking, I’d rather have the merino because I’ll be sweating and wet pretty much all day. If I can’t dry my clothes out each night, then the synthetics might get the nod.

The best place for merino is as a second layer. If you don't care about it drying, than it is "warmer when wet" than synthetics and if you have a light synthetic next to skin then it's not bad.

Thank you for sharing your experiences with us sir. They were informative and eye opening (especially about merino wool).

This discussion has been a bit of an epiphany for me. I used synthetics and wool/syn blends for 10-15 years. About 2-3-4 years ago I switch to all merino wool, not just any merino but the thicker versions (Ice Breaker 260 specifically). I've had 'mixed' results and it wasn't until Form posted and I started thinking about the issue that it became clear to me. For eastern TS sitting, the Ice Breaker 260 works excellent - not much walking, therefore no sweat, I stay warm and dry. The issue starts when I get into the hiking and sweating, then sitting that I've noticed the cold issue which is new for me. Thought I was just getting old. Putting the old part aside, my base layers were/are not drying out in the humid east unless I was able to maintain a enough body heat to do so. That's take 2-3 hours at times. Sitting in 20-30 degree temps with a wet base layer is what's making me prematurely cold. The give away is my legs and feet. I didn't develop a soaking sweat on my legs or feet, therefore they stayed warm while my upper body got cold. I knew something wasn't quite right because this is opposite of my entire life experience in cold. I was born and lived in NW PA for 40+ years, so I know cold weather.

Wearing the 260 in the west has kinda worked mostly because of less humidity but I've still gotten cold after a strenuous hike in to sit for a morning or evening.

When I recreational hike, I've noticed the same issue when I wear the Ice Breaker 260. I've worn an Outdoor Research shirt (80/20 syn/merino) that is probably 120-150 weight. It gets soaked hiking but dries fast. It dries in the length of time after I take a break and put on a puffy of some sort. Viola' warm and toasty after a brief sit.

I ordered a FL Aerowool shirt yesterday and dug out my OR lightweight syn/wool shirt. I'm wearing them hunting next week - lots of hiking, still hunting, sitting. We'll see what works.

As an aside, check out the Polar Tech website - they have pretty good descriptions of their products. I'm really curious about their Power Wool product. I'm trying a merino/syn mix first because I really like the feel of Merino against my skin. I'll trade a few extra minutes dry time for comfort - at least for the moment.

I love the Merino/Synthetic blend base layers they sold at Costco a couple years ago. It's something like %10 merino and %90 poly. Light, durable, dried pretty quick,nice weave that lets it breath fairly well, and didn't stink any worse than anything else I wear.

Cheap too. Haven't seen it in the store for a bit though.

ETA -Here it is.

https://costco97.com/paradox-mens-merino-wool-blend-base-layer-top/

Also they have a decent puffy for sitting and glassing. Not a heavy weight, but plenty for what I've used it for. Mainly sitting in temps from the low 20's up until it's too warm to wear.

Spyder Primo, or some such. Down, but not sure on the fill weight. It was about $60.

I'm a cheap bastard and a Costco slut.

ETA - This one, but in blk

https://www.costco.com/Spyder-Men's-Prymo-Down-Jacket.product.100354848.html

bwinters

I'm looking forward to your review on how those products work for you.

Thanks a lot to all of you. I wasn't even in the market but, after reading all this, I ordered myself a Kifaru Lost Park Parka. You people cost me nothing but money!

I received the EMS puffy today. I like it - its the real deal. I had a coupon and with the current sale, it cost me $110 delivered. It has 5 oz of 800 fill. Its a China product but appears solid. I'll be wearing it next week.

I also received a First Lite Woodbury jacket. First impressions: a bit heavy, less insulation than the FL Sanctuary. fit/finish is about what I've come to expect from FL. The exterior shell is very quiet. Still have residual concerns with the 'toughness' of the shell material - likely wear it next week as well.

I've been wearing several Kuiu products that fit this model. The Ultra 210 Merino hoodie is 50-50 merino to poly. I've washed it several times and let it air dry along with my Ice Breaker 260. No contest, it dries much faster than the Ice Breaker. I also purchased a Kuiu Peleton 240 hoodie. Its all synthetic and dries the quickest of the 3 mentioned. My first go-round next week will likely be my OR syn/merino lightweight shirt next to skin, Kuiu Ultra Merino 210 next. This should suffice for the hike in. A puffy and Kuiu Guide jacket be strapped/stuffed into my pack. I'll alternate for a couple of days with the FL Aerowool shirt under the Ultra 210 and see what happens.

I bought a Kifaru Lost Parka recently and quickly returned it. I didn't like the bulkiness and seemed extremely loud to me.

It seemed load? Just had to ask (hence my avatar)

Lol

I'm sure it will be too loud for archery hunting, but it never hurts to have it along during the colder rifle season.

Good timing on the recommendation of John Barklow. Sat down on an airplane to fly across the country and there was a new podcast with him talking about layering. Good stuff. Sitka seems to be heading in the right direction. A fewmyears ago I wasn’t sold on their stuff. I need to look closer now.

So is it actually better to have a synthetic next to skin and then merino as the second layer?

Three scenarios I'm going to try next week. Synthetic base layer next to skin heavier merino over that, syn/wool blend next to skin with syn/wool bend as next layer, Merino base with wool/synthetic blend as next layer.

I'm now in curious/experiment mode 🤓

If there is one kind of equipment that I have too many of it's the puffy jacket. Seriously, I have 2 Badlands Infernos, a First Lite Uncompahgre, a Browning Hell's Canyon Tommy Boy, 2 Cabela's Primaloft jackets, a KUIU Kenai, 2 LL Bean down puffies, A Cabelas packable down jacket, and probably more that I cannot remember. The down jackets are probably the warmest that I have but have their obvious drawbacks. The Badlands Inferno jackets are probably the warmest synthetic jackets to me. The Browning is warm too.

I was looking at the KUIU Superdown, and I am sure it is good but I don't think it would be warm enough for me. I get cold quickly when I am not moving. The Superdown has high quality fill but not a whole lot of it. If you are looking for the ultimate warmth, I think the bulkier (high fill weight) down puffies would be the warmest. I would look at the drab colors from Montbell, Feathered Friends, Marmot, North Face, etc. They won't be cheap but should be very warm.

Actually, I just checked and KUIU sells a Superdown Pro that appears to be heavier (more insulated) than their original Superdown jacket. It probably wouldn't challenge the Feathered Friends jackets for warmth but should be pretty warm for a 1 pound jacket.

Also, this is obvious but I like to wear the insulation under my shell. With down, I think it compresses the insulation and makes it less warm. I imagine wearing it over a soft shell would be warmer than wearing it under.

I got a Kuiu catalog with my last Outdoor Life issue and they have the Super Down Pro listed with 5 ounces of 850 down with a total weight of 13.4 ounces. On the next page is the slate (they call it Phantom) colored Super Down Ultra one that I would buy just for that non-camo color, but it only has 2.3 ounces of the 850 down fill with a total weight of 7.9 ounces. Customer reviews say that people think that it is too fragile and thin.

Fragile and thin is probably based on hunters putting the jacket into circumstances it wasn’t intended for. I recall reading a thread over on Rokslide where some dummazz was pissed because his Sitka Jetstream didn’t keep him dry in a coastal WA/OR rain. Sometimes you can’t fix stupid.

A 7.9 oz down jacket is meant to be a mid layer and not an outer layer. It will not hold up walking through brush. Neither will a Patagonia Ultralight Down or and Arc’teryx Cerium SL or anything else with a low denier fabric.

Kuiu came out with the SD Pro because people were wearing the SD as an outer layer. In addition to a tougher shell they added more down fill. My only complaint is in cold weather when you need the Pro, the fabric gets very noisy. But that’s something they all do to an extent.

Really there’s no free lunch. You either pay the weight penalty with heavier fabric and/or more fill or you accept that your jacket is 1) not going to be all that warm or 2) will be susceptible to punctures.

Absolutely correct. I can not see myself trying to push through the brambles in a rip stop noisy outer layer. Who among us doesn't have a weather/wind proof or fleece quiet walking covering to go over the top of that down filled puffy jacket? Even then mine is in my pack or I would heat up like a portable sauna.

As a mid layer hunting and an outer layer around town lots of us here in the frozen north want a jacket/parka that can do double duty and with a removable hood. For hunting I can't hear very well with a hood on and a hood does not move as well when I turn my head.

bwinters

Any conclusions from your experiment?

Not done yet. I wore the Outdoor Research Sequence for 3 days this week. This thing is paper thin but works great. Temps in the 40-50's, humid (rain/fog every AM), lots of hiking (basically deer scouting), elevation changes 3-500 feet, steep climbs - a good test of the moisture wicking capabilities. The Sequence is good at wicking moisture. It would dry under my jacket in 30-45 minutes. The Kuiu Ultra Merino 210 hoodie is one of my favorite pieces of new clothing but it hangs onto the moisture a long time even though its a 50/50 product. I layered the Ultra 210 over the Sequence for hiking/still hunting. I added a Kuiu Guide jacket when I stood for any length of time.

I did a mini test today when I got home. I washed all the items, including a Patagonia Cap 2 and 3, and let them air dry while I timed till dry. The Kuiu Peleton 240 was the clear winner, followed by the Kuiu Guide pants. The dry times were 45/60 minutes respectively. After 60 minutes, I turned the ceiling fan on to hasten drying. After 90 minutes, the Ultra Merino 210, Duofold bottoms (50-50 hybrid), Smartwool socks were still a bit damp. Body heat would have helped drying. Surprisingly the Patagonia did worse than the Kuiu Peleton and the Peleton is a much thicker material.

For heavy hiking days, I'm leaning strong to all Peleton - 130 next to skin, 200 mid-layer, 240 hoodie as outer. I wore an Ice Breaker 260 top/bottom, Kuiu Ultra Merino 210 hoodie and Kuiu 240 Peleton hooded in the early part of the Tennessee deer season. I wore the Ice Breaker and Ultra 210 for the hike in, cooled down abit, then added the 240 Peleton to sit. Temps were in the 40-50 and windy. I was comfortable all day.

I'm leaning strong to a lightweight synthetic next to skin, followed by a synthetic or merino/syn blend for all situations except for short hikes into my whitetail treestand hunts. Then it will be Ice Breaker 260 all the way. I love the Ice Breaker wool - if I don't sweat much.

I'm working on my legs now. I'm thinking a heavier synthetic or synthetic/wool blend. I don't sweat much on my legs unless I'm absolutely drenched in my upper torso. I checked out Cabelas ECWS yesterday on my way by and left kind of feeling so-so about it. It uses PolarTec Power Dry so should wick well.

Did you have a chance to evaluate the aerowool. FL has the Minaret aerowool crew in asat camo on sale right now and I'm really tempted to try it out. The other option for a base layer is the Patagonia Capilene midweight crew. What's your opinion?

Thanks

That is interesting that the Patagonia Cap. baselayers had longer drying times for you than the thicker layers from other makers. I've been using capilene for years and have had good luck, but have not experimented with other brands of baselayers, other than the Ice Breaker merino-I sweat so much that the merino was a disaster for me.

bwinters,

how good or bad is the Peloton managing corporal odor? I mean if it will stench at the first sweat.

thank you

I just rec'd the Aeorwool yesterday. I plan to try it next week. The Patagonia arrived while I was out hunting. I washed it for the first time on Wednesday. I plan to give it a whirl next week. I'll try all these base layers over the winter as well - I do alot of hiking in the Smokies during Jan, Feb, March. We generally do day hikes 14-17 miles with a few 20+ mile days thrown in for good measure. I've learned alot from these hiking forays. I fine tuned my boot selection over the past couple years as a result.

340 - I wouldn't read too much into the drying times yet - it was only my attempt at a crude experiment. The acid test will be how well they work under actual field conditions. If people are interested, I'll report what I find. I've spent way too much on clothing this fall. Probably have a sale on slightly used stuff this spring 😎

The only Peleton piece I currently own is the 240 hoodie. I've been wearing it fairly regular since November. I've yet to notice an odor. The next Kuiu sale, I'll buy a 130 and a 200 and plan to wear them together. Been listening/reading a bunch on base layers over the past 2-3 weeks. My theory is to have a substantial 'system' to remove perspiration. Thinking a Peleton 130 or equivalent and a heavier synthetic base layer over to do the perspiration removal system. I also have a few puffys to evaluate to see how they deal with perspiration. We'll see over the winter how his all pans out.

Your experiences in trying different combinations is very interesting. Thank you for sharing them.

Thank you for your contributions, bwinters.

Please keep us tuned.

I would be interested in the results of your 'field trials', for certain. ANYTHING that will help me stay even a little bit drier in cold conditions is worth knowing about.

Following with interest.

I had to give up synthetic base layers because they drove me crazy itching. Merino has never had the same effect. I realize its potential to hold moisture but for me, that is a much better down side than the cutaneous manifestations.

I will say, my casual wear Marmot 800 down jacket is way warmer than any of my synthetic downs (FL, Sitka).

+1 thanks bwinters this is good stuff.

Peloton 240 is a good piece of clothing for some applications but it doesn’t make a very good outer layer. For some reason, it gets snags really easy. Can’t walk through the brush with it on.

Cabels's has some to cheek out.


Just something to look at.

Hey, Merry Christmas!

I've spent way too much time looking at base layers and puffy's.......................

I've also been trying to understand warmth/heat measurements, specifically 'clo' units. I estimated the clo numbers for all these puffy's The RAB Neutrino and Sitka Kelvin Down Hoody have insane clo numbers and should be good for north pole hunting <G>

Puffy Jkts – Down

RAB Neutrino Endurance jkt: 22.4 oz, 8.8 oz (250 gram) 800 down, $375
Sitka Kelvin Down hoodie: 27.2 oz, 8.1 oz down, $272
Kuiu Super Down Pro hooded: 13.4 oz, 5 oz, 850+ goose down, $399
EMS Feather Pack hooded: 15.5 oz, 5 oz 800 down 90/10, $110
Montbell Alpine Light: 12.3 oz, 4.2 oz 800 down, $209
Kuiu Super Down Ultra hooded: 7.9 oz, 2.3 oz 850+ down, $290

Puffy Jkts – Synthetic

Sitka Kelvin jkt: 24.8 oz, 170 gms Primaloft Sport, $269
Browning Mid-Weight: 133 gms (body), 100 gms (arms) Primaloft
ArcTerex Atom AR: 16 oz, 120 gms Coreloft 120, 80 gms Coreloft 80, 60 gms Coreloft 60, $299
First Lite Uncompaghre: 17 oz, 100 gms (body) 60 gms (sleeves/hood), $250
Mountain SuperConductor: 24 oz, 100 gms ThermalQ, $150
Outdoor Research Ascender: 11.7 oz, 95 gms Polartec Alpha, $199
Kuiu Kenai hooded: 13.4 oz, 90 gms (body), 60 gms (arms) Toray 3DeFX, $180
Sitka Kelvin Lite hoody: 16.9 oz, 80 gms Primaloft, $249
Sitka Celsius jkt: 32.8 oz, 80 gms Primaloft Silver, $199
Sitka Fanatic Hoody: 16.8 oz, $189
EMS Impact Hybrid: 80 gms Primaloft Gold, $90
EMS Primapack: 14.8 oz, 80 gms Primaloft Gold, $104
Mountain Hardwear Atherm: 17 oz, 80 gms Polartec Alpha, $285
First Lite Cirrus: 13.5 oz, 60 gms 37.5 Cocano insulation, $200
ArcTerex Atom LT: 12.7 oz, 60 gms Coreloft 60, $259
Outdoor Research Cathode: 13.4 oz, 60 gms Primaloft Gold, $199
Mountain Hardwear Thermostatic: 11.6 oz, 60 gms Thermal Q Elite, $200
ArcTerex Atom SL: 9.2 oz, 40 gms Compact 40, $229

I have several of these, notably the Browning midweight puffy. It is really warm but doesn't have a hood. Also, take a look at the EMS Feather Pack - I bought one on sale a few weeks back. It is the real deal. What I don't know about it is how well it conveys sweat. Most of the hoodies listed have some type of moisture conveyance system.

If the clo thing interests you, here is a table I found. A couple of salient points. First, the best synthetic is Primaloft Gold (unless something newer is out), note it falls in about equal to 600-650 down. Most of the other Primaloft equates to 550 down. Second, I'd not due a down less than 800 over a good Primaloft puffy. The 550 might be lightweight but lacks anything if it gets wet.

Type of Insulation CLO-value (clo/oz/yd2)
550 fill Down 0.7
650 fill Down 1.0
800+ fill Down 1.68
Climashield APEX 0.82
Coreloft by Arctyrex 140 grams/sq m clo = 4.01, noted to be 5% less than Primaloft One
Down-Tek (Water resistant Down) Similar to Down
DriDown: 600-fill down by Sierra Designs Similar to Down
Exceloft by Mont-bell 0.68
Marmot Thermal R Eco 0.8
Polarguard by Invista 0.488
Primaloft Eco Dry: 0.68(0.020 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.60 (0.017 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Eco Footwear Dry: 0.250 m2 C/W/IN (0.100 m2 C/W/CM)
Wet: 0.115 m2 C/W/IN (0.046 m2 C/W/CM)
Primaloft Infinity Dry: 0.57 (0.017 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.47 (0.014 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft One Dry: 0.92 (0.027 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.90 (0.026 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Sport Dry: 0.79 (0.023 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.72 (0.021 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Synergy Dry: 0.73 (0.022 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.61 (0.018 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Black 0.65
Primaloft Silver 0.79
Primaloft Gold 0.92
Thermolite Dry: 2.9 CLO/cm
Wet:1.55 CLO/cm
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 100 0.419
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 150 0.413
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 200 0.403
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 40 0.538
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 70 0.455

Naw, keep up the good work!

Thanks for starting a thread with so much good information in it, and in particular your contributions to it!

I'm going to save this entire thread to my my hard disk!

John (in cold northern Sweden!)

Wow, bwinters, nice summary.
FFIW, I've used my Neutrino in pretty cold conditions( -20F) and it has been very impressive. For synthetic, "dead birds" * Coreloft has been outstanding.

2 cents and all..




*Arc Teryx

Why is Primaloft Gold the best synthetic? How does it compare to Polartec Alpha?

Can't find a clo rating for Polartec Alpha but several internet testing sources have said Primaloft Gold is the warmest synthetic insulation material. To me, when you get into the higher clo numbers, it's not going to matter much. I'm seeing high quality puffys made from Primaloft Gold - Rab, Outdoor Research, and Patagonia have puffys made with PG.

I get the sense Polartech Alpha is really more about moisture management that outright warmth. No basis for that, I could be way off.