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Your experiences in trying different combinations is very interesting. Thank you for sharing them.
"It is wise, though, to remember above all else: rifle, caliber, scope, and even bullets notwithstanding, the most important feature of successful big game hunting is to put that bullet in the correct place, the first time!" John Jobson
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Thank you for your contributions, bwinters.
Please keep us tuned.
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340 - I wouldn't read too much into the drying times yet - it was only my attempt at a crude experiment. The acid test will be how well they work under actual field conditions. If people are interested, I'll report what I find. I've spent way too much on clothing this fall. Probably have a sale on slightly used stuff this spring 😎 I would be interested in the results of your 'field trials', for certain. ANYTHING that will help me stay even a little bit drier in cold conditions is worth knowing about.
Last edited by 340boy; 12/21/17.
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand."
James Elroy Flecker
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Following with interest.
I had to give up synthetic base layers because they drove me crazy itching. Merino has never had the same effect. I realize its potential to hold moisture but for me, that is a much better down side than the cutaneous manifestations.
I will say, my casual wear Marmot 800 down jacket is way warmer than any of my synthetic downs (FL, Sitka).
Last edited by TimberRunner; 12/21/17.
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+1 thanks bwinters this is good stuff.
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Campfire Tracker
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Peloton 240 is a good piece of clothing for some applications but it doesn’t make a very good outer layer. For some reason, it gets snags really easy. Can’t walk through the brush with it on.
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Cabels's has some to cheek out.Just something to look at. Hey, Merry Christmas!
Randy
NRA
Patriot Life Benefactor
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OP
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I've spent way too much time looking at base layers and puffy's.......................
I've also been trying to understand warmth/heat measurements, specifically 'clo' units. I estimated the clo numbers for all these puffy's The RAB Neutrino and Sitka Kelvin Down Hoody have insane clo numbers and should be good for north pole hunting <G>
Puffy Jkts – Down
RAB Neutrino Endurance jkt: 22.4 oz, 8.8 oz (250 gram) 800 down, $375
Sitka Kelvin Down hoodie: 27.2 oz, 8.1 oz down, $272
Kuiu Super Down Pro hooded: 13.4 oz, 5 oz, 850+ goose down, $399
EMS Feather Pack hooded: 15.5 oz, 5 oz 800 down 90/10, $110
Montbell Alpine Light: 12.3 oz, 4.2 oz 800 down, $209
Kuiu Super Down Ultra hooded: 7.9 oz, 2.3 oz 850+ down, $290
Puffy Jkts – Synthetic
Sitka Kelvin jkt: 24.8 oz, 170 gms Primaloft Sport, $269
Browning Mid-Weight: 133 gms (body), 100 gms (arms) Primaloft
ArcTerex Atom AR: 16 oz, 120 gms Coreloft 120, 80 gms Coreloft 80, 60 gms Coreloft 60, $299
First Lite Uncompaghre: 17 oz, 100 gms (body) 60 gms (sleeves/hood), $250
Mountain SuperConductor: 24 oz, 100 gms ThermalQ, $150
Outdoor Research Ascender: 11.7 oz, 95 gms Polartec Alpha, $199
Kuiu Kenai hooded: 13.4 oz, 90 gms (body), 60 gms (arms) Toray 3DeFX, $180
Sitka Kelvin Lite hoody: 16.9 oz, 80 gms Primaloft, $249
Sitka Celsius jkt: 32.8 oz, 80 gms Primaloft Silver, $199
Sitka Fanatic Hoody: 16.8 oz, $189
EMS Impact Hybrid: 80 gms Primaloft Gold, $90
EMS Primapack: 14.8 oz, 80 gms Primaloft Gold, $104
Mountain Hardwear Atherm: 17 oz, 80 gms Polartec Alpha, $285
First Lite Cirrus: 13.5 oz, 60 gms 37.5 Cocano insulation, $200
ArcTerex Atom LT: 12.7 oz, 60 gms Coreloft 60, $259
Outdoor Research Cathode: 13.4 oz, 60 gms Primaloft Gold, $199
Mountain Hardwear Thermostatic: 11.6 oz, 60 gms Thermal Q Elite, $200
ArcTerex Atom SL: 9.2 oz, 40 gms Compact 40, $229
I have several of these, notably the Browning midweight puffy. It is really warm but doesn't have a hood. Also, take a look at the EMS Feather Pack - I bought one on sale a few weeks back. It is the real deal. What I don't know about it is how well it conveys sweat. Most of the hoodies listed have some type of moisture conveyance system.
If the clo thing interests you, here is a table I found. A couple of salient points. First, the best synthetic is Primaloft Gold (unless something newer is out), note it falls in about equal to 600-650 down. Most of the other Primaloft equates to 550 down. Second, I'd not due a down less than 800 over a good Primaloft puffy. The 550 might be lightweight but lacks anything if it gets wet.
Type of Insulation CLO-value (clo/oz/yd2)
550 fill Down 0.7
650 fill Down 1.0
800+ fill Down 1.68
Climashield APEX 0.82
Coreloft by Arctyrex 140 grams/sq m clo = 4.01, noted to be 5% less than Primaloft One
Down-Tek (Water resistant Down) Similar to Down
DriDown: 600-fill down by Sierra Designs Similar to Down
Exceloft by Mont-bell 0.68
Marmot Thermal R Eco 0.8
Polarguard by Invista 0.488
Primaloft Eco Dry: 0.68(0.020 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.60 (0.017 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Eco Footwear Dry: 0.250 m2 C/W/IN (0.100 m2 C/W/CM)
Wet: 0.115 m2 C/W/IN (0.046 m2 C/W/CM)
Primaloft Infinity Dry: 0.57 (0.017 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.47 (0.014 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft One Dry: 0.92 (0.027 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.90 (0.026 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Sport Dry: 0.79 (0.023 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.72 (0.021 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Synergy Dry: 0.73 (0.022 clo/g/m2)
Wet: 0.61 (0.018 clo/g/m2)
Primaloft Black 0.65
Primaloft Silver 0.79
Primaloft Gold 0.92
Thermolite Dry: 2.9 CLO/cm
Wet:1.55 CLO/cm
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 100 0.419
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 150 0.413
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 200 0.403
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 40 0.538
Thinsulate type C, CS and CDS 70 0.455
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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I've spent way too much time looking at base layers and puffy's....................... Naw, keep up the good work! Thanks for starting a thread with so much good information in it, and in particular your contributions to it! I'm going to save this entire thread to my my hard disk! John (in cold northern Sweden!)
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Wow, bwinters, nice summary.
FFIW, I've used my Neutrino in pretty cold conditions( -20F) and it has been very impressive. For synthetic, "dead birds" * Coreloft has been outstanding.
2 cents and all..
*Arc Teryx
Last edited by 340boy; 12/24/17.
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand."
James Elroy Flecker
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If the clo thing interests you, here is a table I found. A couple of salient points. First, the best synthetic is Primaloft Gold (unless something newer is out), note it falls in about equal to 600-650 down. Most of the other Primaloft equates to 550 down. Second, I'd not due a down less than 800 over a good Primaloft puffy. The 550 might be lightweight but lacks anything if it gets wet.
Why is Primaloft Gold the best synthetic? How does it compare to Polartec Alpha?
"Never miss the opportunity to shut the f$%K up." Colonel Hopewell.
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Can't find a clo rating for Polartec Alpha but several internet testing sources have said Primaloft Gold is the warmest synthetic insulation material. To me, when you get into the higher clo numbers, it's not going to matter much. I'm seeing high quality puffys made from Primaloft Gold - Rab, Outdoor Research, and Patagonia have puffys made with PG.
Adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it.
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I get the sense Polartech Alpha is really more about moisture management that outright warmth. No basis for that, I could be way off.
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I get the sense Polartech Alpha is really more about moisture management that outright warmth. No basis for that, I could be way off. Correct. Alpha was meant for highly breathable garments. Personally, I've only had one jacket that uses Alpha-a Rab Strata, but it seemed to work as advertised, and I am one that sweats heavily during exercise...lucky me. 😃😃
Last edited by 340boy; 12/24/17.
"For joy of knowing what may not be known we take the golden road to Samarkand."
James Elroy Flecker
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I get the sense Polartech Alpha is really more about moisture management that outright warmth. No basis for that, I could be way off. That is correct. It is an active insulation layer meant to be worn while moving, to wick sweat and dry extremely quickly.
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This thread is really making me rethink things and will cost me money. I FROZE on my dad's Nevada elk hunt this year. Lots of wilderness so lots of early morning hikes to get up high. Once there I was soaked and froze my ass off. Was wearing a Kuiu merino as a base layer and felt cold and wet on my torso. Alternated between a Kuiu Kenai or a Marmot down jacket. Hiked it wearing Kuiu Attack pants (love these) and once glassing threw on Kuiu down pants.
"Never miss the opportunity to shut the f$%K up." Colonel Hopewell.
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"Allways speak the truth and you will never have to remember what you said before..." Sam Houston
Texans, "We say Grace, We Say Mam, If You Don't Like it, We Don't Give a Damn!"
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Ive been super pleased with my Kifaru Lost Park Parka, down to 10*, not including wind chill.
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I’m thinking of the following: (based on hunt in Rockies at 10k’ in October)
Top
*Capalene base
Sitka Kelvin Active
Kifaru Lost Park
*Rain jacket
Maybe include a merino top as an option for a day hanging around camp or less active day.
Bottom
*First lite merino
*Prana Zion
*Kuiu super down
*Rain pants maybe
Sweat when climbing is an issue so I need to manage that first, then deal with staying warm while glassing.
*Already have
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