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Joined: Oct 2005
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
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Once I had the idea to stuff some steel screen down into some .44 CCI shot capsules, fill them with shot (#6?) then stitch the top together with some very thin wire. The idea was to make the shot hold together until it broke through the screen so it would pattern better. They were very time consuming to construct.
I didn't load the .44 shot cartridges very heavy. As I recall, I used 3 grains of Bulleye.
I propped a 3/4" piece of plywood against the garage wall, then backed off the distance of the garage and "patterned" my shot capsule on the piece of plywood.
It didn't pattern. But I found that a bean bag of #6 shot would blow a half dollar sized hole through both a 3/4" piece of plywood and one side of the wall behind it.
They sucked as shot cartridges, but it appeared that they would be a hell of a defense load,...even when only propelled by 3 grains of Bullseye.
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 651
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I surely like that 30 foot pattern. Makes me want to try making some.
I load the Speer capsules in 44 and 38 and buy 22 Long Rifle and 22 Mag. I carry them all at one time or another and kill 4 to10 Prairie Rattlers around the place every year.
My only use for these is for P R and 6-8 feet is more than enough. One day, I killed 24 PR with the old Remington crimped 22 LR loads in my Model 34. They held 25 grains of #11 shot. A second shot was seldom necessary.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,737
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,737 |
No aiming needed with the shot, that 255 bullet has a lot of air around it. A 20" pattern of lead makes shooting in the dark in a panic and without any measurable recoil quite a nice load in the house where people in other rooms are often likely. A stressed out horrified and panic'd woman awakened out of a sound sleep without much experience holding the gun shaking like crazy might not actually have the calm precision of the experts in self defense so common on internet websites!
Also, discharging a gun inside a house, actually inside a room in a house, will deafen you for quite some time, days. It's also quite the effect on an intruder. There are plenty of other people down the road without guns in the house. You will experience a muzzle blast of pressure on your face and body that does not occur outside or even at indoor ranges for the most part. That concussion even if you miss the target is quite impressive.
Remember I lived in South Africa, home intruders are not the exception. My business partners 70 year old parents were executed while sleeping in the master bedroom both shot in the head. The mother lived about another week before dying in hospital. Just so they could be robbed without interruption. I could post up a number of photo's of what a head looks like when shot with a handgun bullet, shotgun blast or even one with a 308. I have them on my Iphone right now. It's simply to disgusting to actually put on this site.
I'm not speaking from a "what if" scenario that is remotely possible. I'm speaking from seeing this in person several times, many times, or better stated too many times! Then calling the SAPs only to tell me they have no fuel allotment remaining so I'm on my own. Yet another time, I had the intruders zip tied hands behind the back for 6 hours until the SAP's arrived. Only then to be scolded for wasting their time to drive all the way here when I have a back hoe parked in plain sight!
My opinions are not guess work and theory....... I lived in these conditions for a good portion of my adult life. Google South African Farm murders and then choose images or read about it. Hundreds of remote locations a year are attacked probably on a daily basis. Understanding home defense is not a hobby or interesting chit chat, is actually real life and death conditions.
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 17,694
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 17,694 |
I listed 20 New 455 super brass in the class. here! never got around to useing them for snake loads!
Deer Camp! about as good as it gets!
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,661
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,661 |
No aiming needed with the shot, that 255 bullet has a lot of air around it. A 20" pattern of lead makes shooting in the dark in a panic and without any measurable recoil quite a nice load in the house where people in other rooms are often likely. A stressed out horrified and panic'd woman awakened out of a sound sleep without much experience holding the gun shaking like crazy might not actually have the calm precision of the experts in self defense so common on internet websites!
Also, discharging a gun inside a house, actually inside a room in a house, will deafen you for quite some time, days. It's also quite the effect on an intruder. There are plenty of other people down the road without guns in the house. You will experience a muzzle blast of pressure on your face and body that does not occur outside or even at indoor ranges for the most part. That concussion even if you miss the target is quite impressive.
Remember I lived in South Africa, home intruders are not the exception. My business partners 70 year old parents were executed while sleeping in the master bedroom both shot in the head. The mother lived about another week before dying in hospital. Just so they could be robbed without interruption. I could post up a number of photo's of what a head looks like when shot with a handgun bullet, shotgun blast or even one with a 308. I have them on my Iphone right now. It's simply to disgusting to actually put on this site.
I'm not speaking from a "what if" scenario that is remotely possible. I'm speaking from seeing this in person several times, many times, or better stated too many times! Then calling the SAPs only to tell me they have no fuel allotment remaining so I'm on my own. Yet another time, I had the intruders zip tied hands behind the back for 6 hours until the SAP's arrived. Only then to be scolded for wasting their time to drive all the way here when I have a back hoe parked in plain sight!
My opinions are not guess work and theory....... I lived in these conditions for a good portion of my adult life. Google South African Farm murders and then choose images or read about it. Hundreds of remote locations a year are attacked probably on a daily basis. Understanding home defense is not a hobby or interesting chit chat, is actually real life and death conditions. Wait...you're using this for self defense against humans? I see you're convinced that you're right about this, but I would recommend you look at some ballistics gelatin tests with 7.5 shot from a 12ga...It's very unimpressive. From a handgun cartridge, penetration will stay much the same, but with much less shot. In all my years as a Paramedic, I have never once seen anyone killed by birdshot from a shotgun (or handgun for that matter). I've seen some nasty wounds, and some guys in a good deal of pain, but every last one of them could have got up and resumed the fight had they wanted to.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,822
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 19,822 |
...I've seen some nasty wounds, and some guys in a good deal of pain, but every last one of them could have got up and resumed the fight had they wanted to.
Not trying to start an argument, but my observations have been different. I have investigated three homicides and one self-defense fatal shooting where a 12ga with birdshot was used. One victim was shot in the belly from about 10' and was DRT. Another was shot in the neck from ~ 15' and bled out within ten feet of where he was shot. The third homicide was a 16 year old boy who caught a load of #6 shot in the chest from roughly 7 yards. He died in my arms before medics could get there. The intruder in the self defense shooting caught a load of #8's in the chest at about 4' and the shot column stopped at the chest wall on the other side of his body. He didn't get very far, either. Pretty much straight down. It can happen. I've seen several handgun body shot deaths, too, including one from a .39 Special wadcutter out of Charter Arms snub nose from over 75 yards. One shot,center-punched him. DRT. On the other hand I've seen some folks "shot to doll rags" with handguns and lived to talk about it. Also, keep in mind that where JJ has had to deal with these situations, hygiene is not a priority, and medics are even father away than the cops. You don't want to get shot with anything. Much like the Old West where people feared even a .22 Short. Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,737
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,737 |
1) Several years ago my hunting partner tripped and fell in a pasture, his 20guage auto went off . For some reason the trigger was pulled or bumped, it was not in his hands, he dropped it as he was falling and fired straight up in the forehead of his horse. The muzzle to forehead distance was probably 10-12 feet but it's a bit of a guess nobody measured it. There was a hole about 2" in diameter in the horses forehead and no exits of any sort. 6 shot was in the shell. He was spattered in blood and brains from that distance and the horse was dead before it hit the ground. He was shook up and scared and confused. Later that same week he was diagnosed with Parkinson's. Had been fighting through some of it without telling anyone. This event was the last straw. He had been seeing a doctor about it prior but this event was significant in his life.
2) I've never used this load on a person, it was an observation in the original post I used to reply to another person. I would not use the shells for this duty. Just an observation about the damage and ease of use. ie no recoil big area of coverage. Would not really care if the first debilitating shot killed anyone, but it darn sure levels the playing field a bit with 5 more behind it.
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,737
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,737 |
Oh one other example, on youtube there is a arguement between two guys over something and one has a shotgun. The big fella puts his arms out and is yelling something like go ahead shoot me!
The guy with the gun shoots him in the bicep, and you can see the hole blow through his arm pretty darn clearly. It was 3-4" hole clean through. Nothing lives through that in the chest! They were probably 15 feet apart or a bit less. I think it was in south America someplace. My memory on the details a bit fuzzy, but for anyone interested about what birdshot does to flesh, its brutally nasty and easily very lethal !
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,546
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,546 |
I guess the Marines kicking doors in Fallujah should trade up to handguns with birdshot.  I generally stay out of tactical discussions because of my lack of experience, but I'll jump in this time on the basis of witnessing 5,000+ room clearings. Active LEO's carry what they're issued, but those that can choose overwhelmingly go with a shotgun loaded with slugs. In most cases these guys are ex military and contractors, or LEO's on leave of absence, vacation, or some sort of time off. They go with slugs to stop the fight and precisely FOR the reason they can shoot though interior barriers - walls, a mattress, a couch, or whatever a bad guy will use for cover. There are shared horror stories of having birdshot from a riot gun bounce off room décor while the bad guy opens up with a double stack 9mm. These same guys prefer a M4-type weapon for the open streets, and many will carry both a slung shotgun with slugs AND an M4 and switch from one to the other moving from street to buildings.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,953
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,953 |
For anyone new to the handgun forum, things can be done routinely countless times inside 10 yards or ten feet that just dont cotton when the distance doubles or heaven forbid, quadruples. Sliced bread may be the "greatest", yet don' t pack for [bleep].
There are other things that work essentially universally from 550 fps to 2,000 or translated 0 to pushing 1,000 yards and Id be damned if birdshot is one of them...
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
No aiming needed with the shot, that 255 bullet has a lot of air around it. A 20" pattern of lead makes shooting in the dark in a panic and without any measurable recoil quite a nice load in the house where people in other rooms are often likely. A stressed out horrified and panic'd woman awakened out of a sound sleep without much experience holding the gun shaking like crazy might not actually have the calm precision of the experts in self defense so common on internet websites!
Also, discharging a gun inside a house, actually inside a room in a house, will deafen you for quite some time, days. It's also quite the effect on an intruder. There are plenty of other people down the road without guns in the house. You will experience a muzzle blast of pressure on your face and body that does not occur outside or even at indoor ranges for the most part. That concussion even if you miss the target is quite impressive.
Remember I lived in South Africa, home intruders are not the exception. My business partners 70 year old parents were executed while sleeping in the master bedroom both shot in the head. The mother lived about another week before dying in hospital. Just so they could be robbed without interruption. I could post up a number of photo's of what a head looks like when shot with a handgun bullet, shotgun blast or even one with a 308. I have them on my Iphone right now. It's simply to disgusting to actually put on this site.
I'm not speaking from a "what if" scenario that is remotely possible. I'm speaking from seeing this in person several times, many times, or better stated too many times! Then calling the SAPs only to tell me they have no fuel allotment remaining so I'm on my own. Yet another time, I had the intruders zip tied hands behind the back for 6 hours until the SAP's arrived. Only then to be scolded for wasting their time to drive all the way here when I have a back hoe parked in plain sight!
My opinions are not guess work and theory....... I lived in these conditions for a good portion of my adult life. Google South African Farm murders and then choose images or read about it. Hundreds of remote locations a year are attacked probably on a daily basis. Understanding home defense is not a hobby or interesting chit chat, is actually real life and death conditions. That about as stupid a thing as I've read in awhile.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 30,760
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 30,760 |
these still available ? ![[Linked Image]](https://www.usreloadingsupply.com/content/images/thumbs/0000274_44-shot-capsules-speer-25-pk_400.jpeg)
T R U M P W O N !
U L T R A M A G A !
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 651
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 651 |
these still available ? They are still available --- but Speer does not always have them in stock. Apparently produces them every now and then.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,663
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,663 |
Midway has them in stock now, probably others do also.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,737
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,737 |
Those plastic shells often see tough duty bouncing around or in pockets with other things. That plastic will crack and break. That was the number one reason I started using the 445 Supermag brass and calking the top. They have never broken apart even bouncing in the truck dash box for a year at times
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 651
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 651 |
I've got some Speer shot capsules that I've carried in open belt loops for a long time (44s) and they have been banged against all matter of machinery and such. Never had any trouble.
I've never even broken one while applying the crimp, though I've heard of others breaking them during crimping.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,737
Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 8,737 |
Maybe mine were not made by Speer? Don’t know the mfg it was more than 10 years ago. At that point I needed full length brass failure of those shot shells was frequent with shot getting into everything.
Good luck!
www.huntingadventures.netAre you living your life, or just paying bills until you die? When you hit the pearly gates I want to be there just to see the massive pile of dead 5hit at your feet. ( John Peyton)
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