Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer - .338win question

John,

Thanks for your reply. I have similar confidence in several models of TSX/TTSX, having seen a whole lot of them penetrate very deep and very straight through 3-4+ feet of bone and flesh on quartering and facing toward/away shots on large deer, bear, caribou, elk, moose, etc. My experience with other monos is limited, but I have a lot of faith in the X/TSX/TTSX, particularily the 140 TTSX and 160 TSX 7mm variants.

FWIW, when I’m hunting in grizz country, I’m usually chasing something large, like elk or moose, possibly in addition to deer, so I tend to carry something 6.5mm or larger, which if stoked with a TTSX, I feel fine with in the event that I need bone breaking penetration. Come to think of it, even when I’m exclusively after sheep, my lightweight sheep rifles are 6.5 and 7mm in caliber, as well...

JMO....
If you have time for more than one shot.....you weren’t truly in danger! memtb

From my years in the military I have always relied on bullet SD for penetration, but in reality the Germans relied on ballistics' SD for bunker-busting projectiles. While penetration can also be achieved by making the projectile tougher or harder, its SD I can't ignore. In other words, a harder bullet provides more penetration, but a harder bullet of the same construction plus a higher SD can potentially penetrate even deeper. It all means is that one can use a lighter bullet that is tougher than a heavier bullet that is also softer to achieve similar penetration. I am not trying to convinced anybody in this forum, just stating what I always consider ballistics when choosing the ammunitions I use for hunting, or just for target shooting.

.243 (5mm): 100-grain bullets provide the greatest SD as long as you stop at 100 grains (SD of .242)

.264 (6.5mm): 160-grain bullets (SD of .328). This is an outstanding SD from such a small caliber.

.270: 150-grain bullets for an SD of .279.

.30-caliber: 220-hrain bullets for an SD of .331 (outstanding SD)

8mm: 220-grain bullets for an SD of .301

.33-caliber: 250-grain bullets for an SD of .313

.375-caliber: 300-grain bullets for an SD of .305

.416-caliber: 400-grain bullets for an SD of .330

As you go up on the large calibers, some may have lesser SD, but all quite sufficient to provide the utmost penetration, plus bigger holes than the holes from smaller calibers.

Had a grizzly come screaming off a moose kill from the night before south of Pink mountian early in 2000 or so. It sucks you only get one chance. Luckily one 7 STW shot in the head with 150 Partition saved my azz. It happens so fast it didn't hit me till 5 minutes after what could of happened. And yup the moose was done.Buried and covered in bear piss.

Of all the accounts about bear chargers where the person has told the story, one has to be extremely lucky to be able to take one shot when a bear charges from a close range. By the time the person recognizes the danger, one has to be extremely fast to adjust and take action, something that most people aren't able to do. But an experienced or trained person who is lucky enough to see the bear a little ahead of time may be able to do something. We have had guides tracking client-injured bears mauled during the tracking process. I don't have much experience with bears other than the ones I see from a distance, but in my view-after reading forever about bear encounters and people's reactions-it's very difficult to tell how a bear is going to react once you invade its safety zone. The people who really know about bear behavior are very rare indeed.

sooooooo, bullet diameter does make a difference?

Or does it just makes a difference on grizzly bears?

Pardon the sarcasm

There is a difference on deer between a 243 and 270 caliber (BTDT)
There is a difference on elk between 30 and 338 caliber (BTDT)
There is difference on buffalo between 375 and 416 caliber (in print from many PH's)
There is a difference between 9mm and 45's (plenty of lethality studies)

Phil Shoemaker carries a 458, and is a huge 30-06 advocate. Speaks volumes

JB, you state for grizzly protection you would carry a 30-06 with 200gr partitions, I would choose a 338-06 with 210gr as a minimum, or my 9.3x64 Brenneke, 375 H&H, or 404 J.

Bigger diameter hits harder, but dead is dead. If you want something that hits harder, choose a bigger diameter. Once again, simple physics.

All my experience with grizzly's has been in WY, ID, and Alaska. Never had any problems, some encounters. Was usually carrying my longbow as a primary weapon with bear spray or a 44 with 300gr hard cast bullets.

I spend many hours reading medical studies, therefore I am no stranger to scientific methods.

All my experience is subjective observations. Maybe I should have documented all my experiences, but even with detailed documention, there are too many uncontrolled variables with in the field "testing".

I certainly agree with you relating to bullet size, weight, and construction. The differences between bullet diameters or calibers, regardless of how minuscule the differences may be, still make a difference overall. It's a matter of physics, something that can't be exact by field testing, since every bullet shot does not go thought the same space and time, nor exact medium. That's why I rely on ballistics first. If bullet diameter would not make a difference we all would be shooting the same caliber for all hunting (there would not be a minimum gun caliber), and there is no gun out there that can tackle all types of game, from the smallest to the largest and most dangerous.

If you are truly in danger, you may have time for one shot....most don’t! Yes, more rounds would be nice....but in all
likelyhood, you will not have the time to reload. Maybe with a semi-auto! If you have the time for a reload....you did pretty darn good with the first round. Meaning.... you stopped or slowed the threat considerably. If it was indeed a threat, and the shot didn’t “break” him/her down....you likely won’t reload! JMO! memtb

Good points gentlemen, if indeed diameter, weight, construction and momentum didn't matter, then why pray tell are we not punching fortified targets with the feared 17 rimfire gatling guns?

The 50 BMG, 20 and 30mm's are certainly a wasted of powder and lead ;]

This is sort of how I imagine a bear encounter where I actually have a chance of survival, down to the headshot and the adrenaline dump that would distort reality. Good shooting!

CRS,

OK, we'll go over this again.

If you go back and read my posts on this subject, you'll find I never said there wasn't a difference between calibers in their effect on game. Instead, this started with my stating I've never seen a difference in killing power between the .300 Winchester Magnum (and similar .300's) and the .338 Winchester Magnum when using bullets in the 200-grain weight range. This is after using both cartridges, and witnessing other people use them on many animals, both in North America and Africa. I also stated why I thought that was so: The difference in diameter is about the thickness of a stiff business card.

I also stated a few pages back that it's intersting you claim their's a definite difference between the "hitting power" between the .300 and .338 Winchesters, yet SU35 thought they were both hit equally hard, after using both considerably.

I also stated that in my observations MAYBE there's a difference in "hitting power" in calibers over .35, because I've seen it--sometimes--but hadn't seen it consistently enough to count on it.

I did cite a pretty controlled experiment on the National Bison Range that didn't find any significant difference in "killing power" between the .30-06 and .375 H&H. But I didn't cite the Swedish survey of nearly 8000 moose hunters, looking at how far moose went before falling after being hit by a wide variety of cartridges and calibers. That study found no significant difference between the 6.5x55 and .375 H&H.

I also stated there's definitely a difference in "hitting power" in calibers over .40.

Then we went through a big debate about the difference between "hitting power" and "killing power," where I (and several others) stated they'd never seen a major difference in killing power between most of the common calibers used for big game.

If you go back and read my posts about grizzly bears, you'll note that I stated that I was considering using my .338 or 9.3 more for local hunting, though not because I had any concrete faith in either "stopping" a grizzly quicker but because they might make me feel better.

This is partly because I didn't see any significant "hitting power" when shooting my one grizzly with 250-grain 9.3 bullets, at pretty close range. It dropped the bear in perhaps 5 seconds, during which I shot the bear twice through the center of the chest vitals, but the bear didn't flinch, or jerk, or manifest any other reaction to the striking bullets--except for after running a few yards, turning its head to nip at the entrance hole of the first bullet, as bears often do. The other reaction was dropping dead a few yards after the second bullet struck.

Would the results have been different if I'd use a .30-06, with say 200-grain Partitions? Maybe, and maybe not. From what I've observed on various similar-sized animals shot with that combination over 40 years, probably not.

I also stated I might use my NULA .30-06 when hunting in grizzly country, rather than the .338 or 9.3, because it weighs less. But I also have great faith in the penetrating power of the 200-grain Nosler Partition, and have seen lighter, smaller-caliber premium bullets not penetrate as deeply, or deflect, so the .30-06 with a 200 Partition looks to me like a pretty good minimum--not because it "hits hard" but because it penetrates great.

JB,
What I am talking about is the subjective observations from impact to death. Hitting harder, with visual evidence of the hit. How incapacitated an animal is from that impact to death.

Bigger diameters hit harder, incapacitate better. Time to death may be the same. But what happens during that time.? Difference between a deer traveling 100 yards into a swamp, and elk going into a hellhole, a grizzly getting a few swipes at you and a buffalo stomping you.

I have ZERO experience with grizzlies or buffalo. Is physics going to change because the species changes?

I think I have seen the difference, you think you have not. You have more experience than I, maybe in another 10-15 years my attitude will change.

Past fall, adult mule deer buck, shot through the ribs with a 90gr NBT out of 243. Buck flinched, looked around. Few seconds later, a 130gr NBT out of 270. Three inches apart, marked difference in the reaction of the deer. Visually stunned, staggered and tipped over in seconds.

CRS,

Both you and Ray have mentioned physics. What physical quatity are you referring to? If you’re talking about a larger diameter bullet doing more damage, and consequently leading to greater incapacitation, you’ll have to be more specific regarding the mechanisms by which that is true. If I shoot a gopher with a .224 50gr VM and a .243 55gr VM, the incapacitation is the same. If I shoot a piece of AR500 plate with a .224 75AM and a .308 208AM, damage done is nearly equal. If I shot a cape buff with a .17 Fireball and a .224 Fireball, assuming similar bullet construction, incapacitation would like be similar despite a caliber difference of 0.052”, or about 30%, which is greater than the difference between a .300 and a .338. The “physics” involve a lot more than simple caliber differences.

I’ve related this experience before, but I’ll do so again to illustrate that bigger calibers don’t always have a more visible effect on game:

One day when I was guiding a couple of caribou hunters, I saw something that served as another piece of evidence that supported the notion that big guns don’t always hit harder and kill quicker. One of the hunters was using a .25-06, the other a .338WM. Both shot caribou at ~250 yards. Bull caribou can exhibit similar vitality to elk if they're not put down right away with the first shot. The bull hit with the 100gr .257" bullet dropped at the shot, a very dramatic reaction to the shot. The bull shot with the 225gr .338" bullet showed no visible reaction at the first shot. Nor at the second shot. The herd started to wander off when the shooting started, and the targeted bull turned around this way and that, looking nervous about his friends walking away. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Finally he started to slowly feed in the direction the herd went. It took 4 hits through the vitals from various angles to finish the job, and one of those was a finisher when we finally walked up on it. All hits were through the shoulders/lungs ranging from broadside to quartering, and the bull showed no reaction to any of them. Internal damage to the vitals was catastrophic. Unfortunately, physics can’t currently predict the vitality of each individual animal, so there is no way to know how an animal will react to a shot, regardless of the caliber used, short of physically dismembering the critter, as in my gopher example.

Good example, Jordan.

I also pointed out earlier in this thread that original bullet diameter has little to do with internal damage, at least with expanding bullets. (It also varies in "solid" bullets, due to shape, but hopefully we won't get sidetracked with that here.) Conventional expanding bullets start to expand when they hit skin, and are fully expanded by about the time they penetrate one bullet length, or a little more.

They also expand in widely varying diameters, depending both on make and the individual bullet, yet another reason a .338 doesn't necessarily "hit harder" than a .30 caliber. Why would .03" in initial bullet diameter make a significant difference when the bullet immediately expands to anything from, say, .4" to .8" wide?

One thing I've been meaning to do since this thread started is measure the expanded diameters of various recovered bullets in my collection. Might measure a few today.

I’ve got a few I could measure as well, just to throw up here.

The examples you have told have nothing to do with ballistics (physics), but more than likely shot placement. There are too many variables. There was a story about two hunters in Alaska, one who was using a .375H&H loaded with 300-grain Partition ammo, and the other a .338WM with 250-grain Partition. Both shot several times at the bear, but it ran into the brush. About 30 minutes later they started tracking the bear following the blood trail. During the tracking process the bear charged, and again both fired their rifles at the bear and dropped it a few feet in front of them. I remember asking this question: "when you opened the bear, did you figure how many times the bear was hit through the vitals?" I never got an answer, but these two hunters were dead-set to never use a .338 nor a .375 for bear hunting again.

And there is no way that anybody can convince me that there is no difference in bullet "thump" from one cartridge to the next. If there were no differences, then the 6.5 would duplicate the .30-06, and this one would duplicate the .338WM, a .338WM would shoot like a .375H&H. Why would anybody need a .375H&H when the .338 outshoots it? Why would there be caliber "minimums" for hunting certain game species in Africa? Why would the Alaska F&G recommend a certain caliber and ammo as a minimum to hunt bison?

It seems like this thread is moving nowhere. Are we really going to argue the validity of sensible minimums now? I'm sure, with an accurate 223 and the right bullets, that I could stop any grizzly mid-charge with a shot in the head.

That's right. A long time ago I was looking at some photos of a very large bear skull that had very small holes on the bone right in front of the ear canal. According to the story, a Native lady had shot and dropped the bear with a .22LR. No idea if the story is true or not. But this one is: a few years ago and older fellow had to go to court over an illegal kill of a moose in his backyard. The guy was bothered by the moose eating some of the plants in his garden, so he shot it on the side, by the lungs, with a pellet gun. The pellet traveled between two ribs, and got lodged in the lungs. Shortly after the shot the moose bedded, and a few hours later it died.

So a sensible minimum is a rimfire 22 cal... I think we're all good with our regular hunting rigs against dangerous game, as long as we can make the headshot.

Gunner, let me tell you right now, when the big 50 starts chopping car parts and walls down around Haji they put their heads down a little more than with the 5.56’s...