Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Collet dies

There are all kinds of possibilities with dies made from the same family of cases. Some time ago I made up about 50 rounds for my wife's .243, which we have loaded for and shot successfully for a long time. For whatever reason, I didn't resize them quite enough, and the bolt required just a little extra effort to close on a chambered round. She objected. I really didn't want to pull bullets, punch out good primers and start over -- I took a 7-08 sizing die without the expander and adjusted to just bump the LOADED rounds to allow the bolt to close normally. It worked fine, runout is fine, these are hunting rounds. Accuracy just as good. YMMV....Wallypedal

+1

DF

Yep.

Besides the Sinclair concentricity guage, I use a TruTool to fine tune runout. Even with a Wilson or Forster seater, sometimes runout is there and can easily be adjusted. It takes some practice but is a handy tool.

DF

Amen brother.

~~ 10 years ago I did a test of many brands of 223 dies... long after the Lee 1986 patent https://www.google.com/patents/US4723472
I had been using the Redding FL bushing die, but I wanted some data.
I assigned a population of 25 piece of brass to each die, and fired and reloaded, fired and reloaded, repeat, repeat.
I was measuring case length growth and concentricity at the seated bullet with response to the tapered shoulder, with a Sinclair concentricity gauge.

The result was that the Lee Collet neck die, neglected cheap ugly with tool marks and dust... won first place.

The RCBS, Lee FL, Bonanza, Forster and middle of the pack dies stayed where they were in my hierarchy.

The expensive jewelry like Redding FL S die was in last place.



I polished the collet and collar. It makes no difference to the neck sized brass, but it feels smother to me while operating the press handle.
I posted this pictures with the digital camera I got in 2000.
I have collet neck dies in:
223
243
257 Roberts
260
260
270
270 [special order for 6.5-06]
7mmRM
308
30-06
300WM
8x57


Not all of these were bought at the same time.


The later manufactured Lee Collet Neck dies [2009 and on] were already polished when I bought them.
Lee made the dies with better finish over time.

The 3 new cartridges for 2018 for me will be 30-40 Krag, 7mmSTW, and 300H&H.

I will have to call Lee Precision about the 7mmSTW special order.

There was a term I discovered on a cast bullet oriented site: Leement

It referred to the standard treatment performed on a Lee bullet mold before casting began, e.g., "I received the mold today and gave it the Leement".

The collet dies sometimes need a Leement too.

I LEEMENTED the Sinclair concentricity gauge, so that measurements could be with respect to the shoulder. That is made important when a firing pin is pushing the case forward in the chamber.

Explain exactly what you did to the Sinclair and what that modification accomplishes.

DF

It looks like he clearance ground the fixture so the forward support points could ride on the case shoulder, rather than on the body just aft.

I don't see the advantage.

DF

There is a verified mathematical relationship between bullets entering the barrel with random tilt rotational orientation, and target group size. [unlike tilted chambers with constant rotational tilt that fling bullets off center all in the same direction into the same tiny group]

from "The American Rifleman" ~ 50 years ago, and the NRA says it is ok to quote. My computer scanned this text in narrow columns.

"Gauging Bullet Tilt"

THE MOST PRECISE AMMUNITION
FROM A LOT CAN BE SELECTED
WITH A BULLET ALIGNMENT GAUGE.

By A. A. ABBATIELLO

Other factors being normal, bullet
tilt with respect to the case center-
line affects group size. If the barrel
length and twist are known, it has been
found possible to predict the direction
from the group center in which the tilted
bullet will strike. If the amount of tilt
is known, the distance from the group
center can be predicted.
Significant score improvement has
been noted by those who have tried
such gauged ammunition.
In cal. .30 long-range shooting, the
best match-grade ammunition will group
in one to 2 minutes of angle under test
conditions. Part of this spread is due
to the bullet tilt with respect to the
case centerline, imposed by the bullet-
seating tool. This tilt displaces the bul-
let’s center of gravity slightly to one
side; in bullets such as the cal. .30 Ml,
the amount is about 1/8 the displace-
ment of the bullet point. It enlarges
groups by amounts up to one minute.
These deviations become proportion-
ately less as the tilt is reduced. Tilts
over .O04" do not seem to increase the
dispersion of the group beyond the ex-
pected one minute. Perhaps this is
because a well-fitting chamber has a
tendency to straighten any rounds
which are excessively tilted. Other ex-
planations are possible.
The gauge consists of a V-block
which permits rotating the round about
the bullet point and 2 tangent spots
near the case head. A dial indicator
which reads in tenths of thousandths of
an inch (.0OO1") bears on the bullet
near the case neck. Half the total indica-
tor reading is used as the displacement
for determining the classes into which
the rounds are separated. The high point
is also marked at this time for orienta-
tion of the round in the rifle chamber.
Rounds with .0O2" tilt or less can
be considered good enough for long-
range use, while those with .O03" and
.OO4" tilt are best used only at short
ranges. In general, it was concluded
from target results that each .0Ol" of
tilt will increase the group spread about
1/4 minute of angle, up to a maximum
of .OO4" as mentioned above.
Under test conditions, it was found
that when the rounds were chambered
with the high point always in the same
orientation, the groups were smaller
than when it was randomly oriented.
Gauging and orienting the rounds can
produce the smallest groups of which
that ammunition is capable.
These ammunition refinements are
becoming important, particularly in
long-range matches.
The essentials of the tilted bullet were
discussed in detail no less than 50 years
ago by Dr. F. W. Mann in his book
"The Bullets In Flight". He pointed out that
the balance of the bullet and the spiral
path of the center of gravity are of
high importance in accuracy.

Following a discussion between
George L. Jacobsen of Frankford Arse-
al and the writer at the 1959 National
matches, a trial of the effect of neck
concentricity was carried out by Jacob-
sen. He described his results in ".30-’O6
Cartridge Cases And Accuracy", which
appeared in THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN,
January 1960, page 20.

SEATING TOOL A FACTOR

The effects which Jacobsen found,
though small, are essentially in agree-
ment with the work reported here.
However, he did not separate the effects
of neck eccentricity and the bullet cen-
ter-of-gravity location with respect to
the bore. The angular direction of the
bullet seating tool is a controlling factor
in the initial position given to the bullet,
rather than merely case neck eccen-
tricity. Case necks can be centered or
eccentric, and the bullet can be inclined
in completely random directions. The
tilted bullet is believed to be the main
cause for center—of-gravity side shift.
The cal. .30 boattail bullet of 173 grs.
weight was selected for these tests be-
cause it is in common use and is of
sufficiently high quality for use in the
National Matches.
Using the gauge shown, 42 ammuni-
tion lots were sampled and the high
point was marked on each round gauged.
These rounds were grouped in steps of
.OO1" bullet tilt, and the data tabu-
lated. The results gave a bell—shaped
curve for 829 rounds of match ammu-
nition, peaking at about .0O2" (see
illustration). Measurements on Service
ball ammunition produced a curve of
similar shape, but peaking at about
.0025" tilt.
This graphically illustrates that even
match-grade ammunition has appreci-
able variations. There is a large spread
among particular lots and boxes. In
general, 10% to 20% of each lot, de-
pending on ammunition quality, falls
into .0O3", .0O4" or even up to .O10"
tilt. Run-of-the-mill ammunition can
thereby enlarge groups to about twice
the size which the same ammunition
can show when it is gauged before firing.
Since the tilt angle of the bullet is
so small (about 1/4 °) it is difficult to
perceive visually. The gauge, however,
makes the sorting a fast, routine step.
A mathematical solution of this prob-
lem was also tried (see box) and is in
good agreement with the results ob-
tained. It is gratifying to find the math-
ematical solution and the experimental
results in agreement.



MATHEMATICAL SOLUTION

A laterally displaced center of
gravity moves through the rifle bore
in a helical (screw) path. The pitch
of this helix is the pitch of rifling,
and its radius is the lateral displace-
ment of the center of gravity. On
leaving the muzzle, the center of
gravity continues in the direction it
had at that point. For example, if it
leaves at top of the bore and rifling
is to the right, the departure will be
to the right. The bullet travels ap-
proximately 2l.5" in a 24" barrel,
making 2.15 turns in the 10" twist
of rifling. The number of turns
shows the orientation on emergence
compared with that in the chamber
before firing. The angle of emer-
gence is that angle whose tangent is
2 pi times the lateral displacement
divided by the rifling pitch. For
.004" point displacement and I0"
rifling pitch, the tangent is 1/8(2·pi)
(.004)/l0 and the corresponding
angle is 1.1 minutes.
The displacement on target from
this cause is proportional to the
range and can be obtained without
noting the angle. For example, ,004"
point displacement gives in l0"
rifling pitch, so far as this mecha-
nism goes, a target displacement at
100 yds. (3600") indicated by the
proportion .00l· pi /10=X/3600, from
which x =1.1".

If the front of the bullet is touching the lands, the bullet is concentric in that plane.
But for the bullet to be parallel with the bore, the brass must hold the rear of the bullet concentric with the bore.
If the shoulders of the brass are not touching the chamber, when the firing pin pushes the cartridge forward, the tapered shoulder of the cartridge gets aligned with tapered shoulder of the chamber.

The advantage of the Lee Collet neck die is that the brass is sized with respect to the inside of the neck, not the outside of a neck wall that may have thickness runout.
To measure something that predicts the concentricity of the rear of the bullet in the chamber , I rotate on the shoulder in the concentricity gauge and measure the bullet runout as close to the neck as I can.

Thanks.

That will take some digesting.

DF

Think of the R-8 collet taper in a mill with a draw bar.
The rifle chamber is like that, but the firing pin is pushing, not pulling like a draw bar.
The male shoulder taper gets crammed into the female shoulder taper, and they get very concentric.

You've blinded me! With science!

Is it that some of you have to keep up with the Joneses, or maybe you have a lot of money to burn? If it's the latter, I'll email you my address.

If you are using an off the rack rifle - like Sakos, Tikkas or Kimbers - the odds of you seeing much, if any, improvement using high end reloading equipment are slim. Even Remington or Savage shooters won't see much, if any improvement. Some guys are spending more money than they need to for stuff that is unlikely to improve their hunt, or tighten groups.

Those so called "tacticool handles", mentioned on another thread, will help your hunt more than Redding bushing dies. When you're cold, or have been hiking for a while, and finally spot a critter, and you lean on an improvised rest, and line up a shot at an unknown distance, your dies or gauges aren't going to make the shot. They are not even going to improve the odds. You're cold, stressed and might be shaking. Shooting practice wins the day, and a little luck.

Most of the equipment touted to improve accuracy came about for, or by, competition shooters. These guys shoot at targets of a known size, at a known distance, at ranges with wind flags, and covered shooting benches. If concentricity gauges, meplat uniformers, expensive bushing dies, etc. can only manage to reduce comp gun groups by a few thou, your Wallyworld Rem 700 hasn't much of a chance.

Do you practice?

The best way to shrink groups is to shoot. Practice. And then shoot some more. I wonder how Annie Oakley managed to hit anything way back when without bullet uniformers, weighed cartridges and CNC manufactured 22RF ammunition?

This post will be ignored by most, but when I read stuff like this, I shake my head. Take your 22 RF out and shoot. Shoot cheap bricks of ammunition, and do it regularly.

Good luck.

We now return you to today's mid-winter discussion, already in progress.

There are some of us who handload for for fun, taking pleasure in the improvements we achieve. That doesn't mean we're convinced getting a sporting rifle down from 1 moa to 3/4 moa will make us better deer hunters.

Most people who reload for fun (or necessity) don't buy Redding bushing dies or concentrity gauges.

It's a free market system. Buy what you want.

A guy can also roll a loaded round across a flat surface and see if it's REALLY crooked.......

Steve,

I've often said there comes a point where trying to mimic the loading techniques of BR shooters provides no return for a guy shooting a hunting grade rifle. But competition improves the breed, and along the way there are some things the BR shooters have learned and can be adapted and applied to make better hunting ammo.

Here on the 'fire there are primarily range shooters, whitetail hunters who generally are hunting from a stand, and folks in the west who are hoofing it around at altitude. Different requirements in our shooting gear for different circumstances. A whitetail hunter shooting from a blind may very well be able to take advantage of loading techniques with a 9lb custom bbl rifle that won't help me with my 6.5 lb factory rifle here in Colorado.

But I will say loading straight ammo has always resulted in some improvement for virtually all of my hunting rifles. I take perverse pleasure in buying older M700's and making them shoot well, and have ran across a few that shoot very well.

And to expand on Mathman's post, handloading for me is a hobby unto itself, and that hobby is also an extension of my passion for hunting.

I own three concentricity gauges.........

I use my RCBS gauge the most, just...because...