Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Deer Hunting Speed Kill`s

Jerry, dead is dead. They eat the same whether they drop in their tracks or run 20 yards.

Mike that's true but it can make a difference WHERE you are when you shoot the deer.

I have a few pix - that I don't have access to because of photoPUKEIT. I've killed deer w/in FEET of a property fence.
I've seen heart/lung shot deer run farther than 20 yds.

We can still be friends even if we don't agree.

Jerry

I've killed deer with a .22-250 slinging 55 grain bullets at 3800 fps, a .243 with 85's at 3300, a .30-06 with 165's at 2800, a .30-30 with 170's at 2200 and a .357 mag. {carbine} with 158's at 1800 fps. Never saw much difference between em as far as quickness of killing. High shoulder, head or neck they drop right now with all of them. Lung or heart with all they run aways, usually 20-60 yards before they fall over. Of all the deer I've shot or seen shot the two that went the farthest after taking a hit through both lungs were with a .270 130 at 3100 fps and a 12 gauge 1 oz slug at 1600.

true but it can make a difference WHERE you are when you shoot the deer.

I have a few pix - that I don't have access to because of photoPUKEIT. I've killed deer w/in FEET of a property fence.
I've seen heart/lung shot deer run farther than 20 yds


I am in total agreement with this reply above ! I hunt the lines too. most hunters don`t understand high velocity tell they watch me knock a deer down or use my handloads. as far as my deer count antelope count I have no ideal how many we just eat`em.

pete, some things just have to be seen OR experienced. Telling the story doesn't convey the REST of the story.

Jerry

A very large wager says this isn't so.

You had your rifle pressure tested? How?

There are only two things that make velocity, time and pressure. You either need a lot of pressure or a lot of time under the pressure curve (read LONG barrel). Why don't you run a quickload trace on this cartridge to see what pressure is estimated to get 3850. I'll bet it is in the 80 KSI range. You are right at the yield strength of your bolt lugs etc. A Ruger #1? I have no idea how much pressure they can take. I have seen a face that was next to an action that let go. Glad it wasn't mine as the buried the guy.

I am not going to debate whether the high velocity results in quicker kills because there is some anecdotal evidence that is does contribute. I will say that 3850 out of a 257 Wby with a barrel shorter than 32" is a result from some VERY high pressures.

Pete, how come your velocities are several hundred feet per second faster than any data I can find for the 257 Wby?

it wasn`t my rifles that got tested it was my handloads used in there factory rifle barrel tester that my hunting partner built for the factory while he ran the gun shop at that factory years ago. his findings he told me was 56ksi with velocity of 3800fps,so I have just went with that my cono showed the same velocity, my fired primers don`t even show signs of high pressure out of my Ruger no.1`s or my pre-64 Winchester but this spring I will check velocities again after the snow melts . all`s I can say is I have knocked down deer,antelopes,caribou and a bunch of predators with this 257 w.mag load ,friends have too even on elk also.i have switched brass brand so its possible my load might be 100 fps slower ?

Jerry, I've been in those fenceline situations too. I always liked the 30-06 and a 150 grain Power Point for planting deer where they stand.

Pete I will agree that speed does destroy meat in a way I have never seen before. It made me a believer in both hydraulic shock and hydrostatic shock. I also believe that some identical rifles don't produce the same velocity. I used to hear and read (I think) some people talk about a "fast barrel" meaning that a particular rifle shot faster than it should. I think my 25/06 is one of those kind of rifles. When I first went to the 100gr Partitions I used loading data from the Speer manual for their 100gr bullets . Speer used to be liberal with their data and I thought I needed ever fps I could get. So I used their loads with the Nosler Partitions and I chronographed that load doing 3500 fps. Back then I was young and dumb enough to use that for my hunting load for a couple of seasons. Oh it killed deer just fine, it made a lot of DRT kills but I began to rethink it all when my wife used it to kill her first deer. When the spent shell was ejected the primer fell out. Thank God that I backed off that load before someone was hurt or the rifle ruined. I've also outgrown the notion that I can use primers as the deciding factor in whether a load is safe or not.

I am NOT calling Pete (or anyone else)a liar. If you want to shoot those loads then help yourself. To get higher velocity you either raise the pressure, get a longer barrel or both. Quite simply science/ physics says that's how it's done if we are using all the same components.

Weatherby made their reputation by having the fastest cartridge in a given caliber. You can bet the farm that if there was a safe way to pick up 300-350fps they would have done it before now.

Yes sir, speed kills. Don't much matter if it's a bolt through a skull, pieces an action through the chest or a head-on collision doing 90 mph. Yep, speed kills.

Pete, I seriously would like to know what components you are using ie brass, powder and charge weight, what make and weight of bullet, primers used and OAL of the completed cartridge. I would also like to find out about the brand, contour, twist rate and freebore of your barrel. I would also be interested in contacting the gunsmith if you have his contact information. I have been interested in the 257 Weatherby Magnum longer than I have my wife. By chance do your barrels have a progressive twist rate? Do you use any type of bullet coating? I may have another question or two later. Thanks.

With a Scenar or a Berger, It's surprising how little meat is damaged on the entrance side. The off side can be another story! Some guys need to relax a bit. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Have a little fun.

NOT to shove a point..but to point out perspective.

The 06 and 150s ARE speed compared to 30-30, 35 Rem, 45-70, etc.

NO ?


Jerry

Yes indeed.

If primer pockets don't last long, there is some over pressure going on. I was told I had HOT loads in 223, but I had done some things, and knew I was warm in my mind, but not hot. So we had them tested. Book said 55 IIRC was safe. I was at 60. thats not a big thign to me. but my pockets lasted a LONG time. Close to 20 firings usually. Had neck split issues before primer issues.
A buddy had HOT loads.. his pockets opened in a few firings. He was about 150 fps faster than what I was. Once you get above about 62 or so on pressure its not something I need and if its opening pockets its going to bite you in the face sooner or later. YMMV.

Actually, I know him personally, have shot with him, and seen his game heads. He's not lying.

So what is the point about seen his game heads? I don't get that point?

another point in getting these higher velocities in a rifle ,powders of today are much better and we all have a lot to pick from now.if Roy Weatherby himself was alive or P.O. Ackley was still around these two riflemen would show us some real speed too,at my range and my gun and archery shop I get to play with many rifles,i don`t shoot factory ammo for big game ,I handload all my ammo myself ,all arrows I build myself too,i get a lot of satisfaction with what a produce in ammo and arrows.

There are better mousetraps today. But what traps are you running to get the speed you are at and at what pressure?

Unless you know actual pressure you don't know if you are safe or not.

And excess pressure finally stands up one day and something snaps...

I can see, odd groove rifling. Coated bore. Coated bullets. triple base powders, heck there might even be something new. And long barrels... one of my 7 mags has 28 inches of tube on it.

Regardless to all that I'd have to push a 100 ttsx at 3800 to see if I agree or not. But I value my limbs, eyes and life to much to see how to get there without a seatbelt on.

Most looneys load, most looneys make their own arrows. Do you make your own arrowheads? I've really wanted to and have done a few but nothing good enough yet IMHO. But that part is WAY OT

I have a zero freebore 257 also with a 27 inch barrel. This is me talking, and feel free to flame away, if it was shooting 100 grain bullets 3850 I would be afraid to shoot it.

I ran a quickload scenario with 100 gr Swift a frame, R22, 27" barrel.

To get 3,800 fps the pressure is over 78,000 psi.

For pressure at 64,000 psi, the velocity is 3,570 fps. That is almost 6 gr of powder difference.

BTW - R22 is not the best powder for getting the most velocity. Retumbo will get you 3,650 psi at just under 65,000 psi.

R33, R50, IMR7828, R25, and H1000 all show higher velocities than R22 (with safe pressure)