Home Forums Birds & Dogs Shotguns Looking for 410 over & under suggestions and anything out there for sale ?

I think I'm going to keep my eyes open for both a 28 and 410 Italian made over and under at some point but to fill the void I pulled the trigger on a ATI 410 over and under. 28" barrels ,5 choke tubes included for under $500 handles like a dream but as I said I'm keeping my eyes open for both 410 and 28 Italian made double

My favorite birdgun is a 28 gauge SxS.

I got a CZ Woodcock Mini 410/410 from Derrick last year and really like the gun... extractors only and that has been an issue once, but how many grouse do you have to kill at once?

While I have seen some reason for concern with larger gauge Turkish doubles I doubt the 410 is an action stretcher...

Beautiful double

Rick, I think you'll be impressed with that ATI

It's not "frame stretching" that is the problem (though the 410 operates at a much higher pressure than the 12 ga except maybe the 3.5" shells and it is the amount of pressure that can contributes to frame stretching) but the wearing of internal parts that is the problem. To get such a low price point corners must be cut and part of that equation is the quality of steel used.

Typically, the wear surfaces are case hardened in these instances and then the longevity is dependent on how well administered the process, the thickness of the hardening, the underlying hardness of the steel, and how well the parts fit together. Amount of use is a variable as heavy use will lead to replacement sooner but that is a gamble as a gun at the low end of the quality spectrum will still break after little use-it will just be a longer time by the calendar. On the other hand, if all went well, a low price point gun may give a long time of hard use.

Some parts may be easy to repair, if you can get the parts, but some items such as pivot points are much harder and very costly to repair. Berettas are designed for replacement of pivot points and they run in the area of $300 to replace last I saw a few years ago. And that is after many tens, if not hundreds of thousands of rounds going down the barrel.

Regulating barrels so they shoot relatively together is also a significant cost. It is more complex than pointing a laser down the barrels and then soldering them together. There are a number of steps to get a decently regulated set of barrels and that costs time and money. The big manufacturers lessen the time and effort through strict quality control of the materials, processing and assembly but even they have a few dogs slip by.

Another factor leading to suspicion of low price point items is quality control. The higher the standards and the more frequent the checks, the higher the cost of production as this leads to more rejects and/or time fixing errors. Low priced items tend to do less in depth inspections as well as less frequent inspections allowing for more potential problems to pass.

Figure in the shelf price includes a 5% mark up for dealer profit, 11% for Pittman-Robertson tax, likely 5% profit for the manufacturer, and what is left has to cover materials, labor, rejects, loss, shipping, advertising, depreciation of equipment, and whatever other expenses are involved and one sees there are numerous corners being cut.

I have been bitten by price point firearms many more times than not and I have seen many, many others have similar experiences. There is a saying that goes something like, "Only rich men can afford low quality as only the rich can afford regular replacement." I have had guns sit in the corner for years due to broken parts that were unavailable and the price to have them made was much more than the value of the gun. Thankfully, Numrich Arms will take them though only for pennies on the dollar. Ship 4-5 at a time as shipping will often eat up the price of at least one gun. I understand finances but always buy the best quality one can afford. In the case of shotguns that may mean a pump or semiauto rather than an O/U or SxS for a given amount of money but one will end up further ahead in the long run.

You left out very low labor costs in Turkey...

Five per cent is way too low for dealer mark-up, even in the land of very small mark-ups.

The action stretching comment was tongue in cheek as that was a common comment years ago.

With about half the surface area on the shell head going against the action face as a 20 gauge, even at a bit higher pressure I think the 410 is relatively gentle on most aspects of the wear. Enough so it did not bother me to try one.

Labor costs were addressed, it is included in the manufacturer's cost to produce the product along with materials and depreciation. If profit mark ups are greater than I surmised, that would leave even less for actual manufacture of the product.

5% is pretty close to mark up on a bottom tier firearm from what I have seen comparing wholesale and shelf prices of reasonably sized retailers. A large seller may be a bit higher as they can get a volume price break as well as possibly buying direct from the manufacturer thereby skipping the distributor mark up. Mom and pop stores vary too much to predict as their purchase prices may be higher due to the sales model they choose to follow: high price/low volume or low price/high volume.

"Frame stretching" is a new one for me regarding shotguns. A shotgun goes off face due to compression of the hinge and not the breech face. Not cleaning under the ejectors/extractors is a significant cause of that problem. Not cleaning/lumina trunions, hinge pins, or whatever the manufacturer calls its pivot points is most of the other reasons. have heard and seen "frame stretch" with black powder era/designed cartridge rifles and pistols but not shotguns. I'll have to remember that term for shotguns.

As for the effect of pressure on the frame, I am pretty sure a 410 framed gun would have a greater force pushed against the breech face than a 20 ga due to the breech surface area compared to relative pressures. In a 20 ga frame, the 410 would have a lesser force acting against the breech face. I'm not familiar enough with the consept to explain it better but it is why the T/C Contender pistol could handle the 223 Rem class cartridge but not larger ones even though pressures were essentially the same. T/C had to design the Encore to handle larger cartridges.

Surface area of the cartridge head multiplied by the force exerted (choose your units) determines how much force is applied to the breech face. The 20 gauge gun has double the surface area and less than a 10% decrease in pressure. I would prefer to use psi, as CUPs is nonlinear.

I bought a Yildaz from Academy Sports a couple of years ago on a whim. It had really nice wood that just really stuck out on the rack. True .410 frame and was surprised at the nice machining when I took it apart to clean before I shot it. Around $550 if I remember right. No Beretta or Browning, but a very good gun for the money. I've taken several limits of doves with it. I usually start out with my Browning 12 gauge and really appreciate the .410 by the third weekend on my shoulder. I find it makes me a little better shooter when I go back to my larger gauge guns because I learn a little patience in picking my shots with the .410 and the low brass shells that I can find and afford to buy for it.

Take a long look at the Stevens 555. I am going to purchase one in 20ga. as soon as my 20ga. BPS sells. Played with a pile of them at the local Scheels and they are really nice for the money.

They are $599 at Scheels, but they will price match ANY add as long as the item is in stock! I expect to pay $520 for mine when the time comes.

Anybody interested in a VERY nice condition BPS 20ga.? PM me for pics!

Elk Country

I handled a Stevens 555 .410 recently and was impressed. I am seriously looking at getting a .410 in a Remington 1100. If my tastes change I can see me getting the 555 mainly for the price.. Good luck, Dave

Chasing empties tain't fun...

410's - 101 & 11-48





A couple of answers to "whippy"






DMc