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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 12
New Member
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OP
New Member
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 12 |
Having been a high power competition shooter and utilizing bolt rifles my entire highpower career since 1973 I understand the frustration and have already experienced the problems you are going to find.
FWIW you can get by with a right hand bolt rifle utilizing iron sights just fine. In competition you have to get off 10 rounds in 60 seconds from the sitting position at 200 yards and prone position requires 10 rounds in 70 seconds at 300 yards and the irons don't interfere with getting your hand to the bolt know but when you have a scope that is completely changed.
You are going to need optics and shooting lefty with a bolt gun and a scope is not a good combination if you are contemplating fast second shots because the scope prevents rapid bolt manipulation by a lefty so I rethought my options and bought a left hand Tikka rifle. I had triple bypass surgery last Oct 2 so I haven't been able to get the Tikka up and running so to speak though I have the scope and just got the rings for it.
Caliber is iffy as well depending on how much shooting you are planning. It is well known that some callibers are barrel burners that will take out a barrel in about 500 rounds where other calibers you should see a 5000 round barrel life. My first choice for long barrel life for long range shooting would be a 30.06 with 175 gr Sierra MatchKing bullets and Vihta Vouri 150 or 160 propellant. This propellant is generally cooler burning and not as bad on your barrels.
As a rule the smaller the bore diameter(under 30 cal) the shorter the barrel life so you must make a decision on which you can live it.
Hunting at long range presents a even harder challenge as after 400 yards it becomes more critical to know THE EXACT RANGE to your target in order to elevate your chances of obtaining a first shot hit. Thus you are going to need the best range finder you can find.
Here's why. Lets say you have a 30 cal rifle and your handloads are chonographing 50 fps extreme velocity spread. At 1000 yards that will give you a group 20" high so even if you know the exact range your ammo is likely to let you down.
You are not likely to buy commercial ammo that will deliver you a 20 fps extreme spread so it is critical you hand-load for best possible groups and minimum vertical stringing thus you are going to get into reloading and develop the skills to load ammo into the 20 FPS or less range.
Your scope is going to be a major decision because internal adjustment scopes can be iffy in the repeatability range. Determining repeatability is simple, finding the scope that will do it is the problem.
Evaluating your scope procedure:
Zero at 300 yards and put up a new target and shoot a 3 shot group. Then run your elevation up 20 clicks, right 20 clicks, down 20 clicks and left 20 clicks and shoot the 4th shot. Plot that shot at the bench. Next run scope down 20 clicks, left 20 clicks up 20 clicks and right 20 clicks and shoot and plot the 5th shot. The up 20 left 20 down 20 and right 20 clicks and shoot sixth shot and finally down 20, right 20, up 20 and left 20 and shoot your 7th shot and plot it.
Evaluate as follows: Lets say in 5 continuous shots your rifle will print 2" at 300 yards but your six shot group is 6 inches which is well likely to be the case you know your scope may well let you down by moving the elevation up and down. This can be compensated for.
Internal adjustment scopes should be mounted so that with the scope in the mechanical zero range, you have it printing shots very close at 300 yards as internal adjustment scopes generally get iffy in the extreme ranges if the adjustment module is way off center inside the tube.
Determining Mechanical Zero of your scope. Back up elevation to the top of the travel till the adjustment stops. Then run your scope down all the way to the bottom till it stops. Lets say that is 120 clicks so run you scope back up 60 clicks and you are in the middle of the adjustment range. Now do the same thing on your windage and center that as well.
Then mount the scope and shoot it at 50 yards and see how far your point of impact is from the point of aim. If the natural mechanical zero is off you need rings with the ability to move the scope to achieve center impact WITHOUT TOUCHING THE SCOPE KNOBS. The only ones I know that will achieve this are the Burris Signature Zee rings with a box of assorted shims so you can move the scope to get the POA as close to the POI as you can before you move the knobs.
Once you get "IN" at 50 yards move to 100, then 200 and 300 yards and see if your groups are going walkabout. This is a lot of work but if you want reliable first shot on at long range the internal adjustment scope has to be near the middle of its mechanical zero.
OK lets say you have it figured to 300 yards change the inserts to raise the rear of the scope and lower the front of the scope till it is on at 600 yards. As a medium range rifle I would set it for 600 yards on mechanical zero. If you know all your shots are going to be at 900 to 1200 yards you need to work a mechanical zero there.
Case in point lets say you have a good zero at 600 yards and you get a shot at 800 yards. You will have to come up about 40 clicks. If you are zeroed at 800 yards your come ups will be more. Get a Sierra ballistics program and plot your come ups . For openers here is are changes with a 175 gr bullet loaded at 2700 FPS for the Sierra Program.
Zero at 600 yards and shot comes up at 800 yards you have to aim OVER 78" Zero at 600 yards and shot comes up at 1000 yards you have to aim over 222"
Zero at 800 yards and shot comes up at 1000 yards aim over 124" Zero at 800 yards and shot comes up closer at 600 yards you aim 58" lower.
Obviously if your scope does not have the available clicks you are going to be having a problem quickly and most scopes don't.
Finally I have a target on a frame 4 feet wide and 8 feet high. I set it up down range and after choosing my zero range I will cover the entire board with newsprint (end rolls from newspaper company) and put a target near the top. Lets say I have rifle zeroed at 600 yards and I want the ACTUAL DROPS at longer ranges I shoot 3 rounds at 600, three rounds at 700, three rounds at 800 and I know the exact come ups by measuring to the center of each 3 shot group.
Basically this is exactly how it is done at Aberdeen Proving Ground except we had a target 32 feet high and 32 feet wide. When I conducted the Technical Feasibility Testing of the M16A1E1 (adopted as the M16A2) we shot dispersions (6-10 shot groups) with sight set at 200 meters and we went all the way back to 800 meters without touching the sights. We just raised the target to about 28 feet up and thus we captured all shots and could determine all drops completely and not be concerned with the accuracy of the iron sight and how much it moved each time.
Bottom line is getting reliable hits at longer ranges is a IFFY situation but can be done if you do the homework.
Formerly Small Arms Test Director, Aberdeen Prov Gnd, Army Small Cal Wpns Lab, Mem Interagency Comm Sec. Equip. Wash, Intl Wound Ballistics Assn, Consultant to INS, USBP, DCIS, FLETC, 4 US Intl Rifle Teams NRA Bene, Vol FD, Eagle Scout, Shriner.
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,314 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 17,314 Likes: 1 |
Welcome to the jungle baby.
Things slow in Havre?
Screw you! I'm voting for Trump again!
Ecc 10:2 The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the 24HCF.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Joined: Jun 2006
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,098 Likes: 6 |
I don't know but its like the OP read my mind. That's exactly how I set up my long range rifles.
Uncanny.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Regular
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I don't know but its like the OP read my mind. That's exactly how I set up my long range rifles.
Uncanny. Stole the words from my mouth
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 12
New Member
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New Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 12 |
Zero at 600 yards and shot comes up at 800 yards you have to aim OVER 78" Zero at 600 yards and shot comes up at 1000 yards you have to aim over 222"
Zero at 800 yards and shot comes up at 1000 yards aim over 124" Zero at 800 yards and shot comes up closer at 600 yards you aim 58" lower.
What? If you are shooting out this far, no one will be using inches.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,988 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 7,988 Likes: 3 |
Zero at 600 yards and shot comes up at 800 yards you have to aim OVER 78" Zero at 600 yards and shot comes up at 1000 yards you have to aim over 222"
Zero at 800 yards and shot comes up at 1000 yards aim over 124" Zero at 800 yards and shot comes up closer at 600 yards you aim 58" lower.
What? If you are shooting out this far, no one will be using inches. Yeah, well some of us old codgers still use the "old arithmetic" for our long range shots. Worked before Mil dots and Millirads were all the rage and still work today. I guess one day I may try to figure out the "new math" for those long distance shots, maybe not.... Bob "
Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability.
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461 |
interesting,. I just bought a rem 700 long range 30-06 to go along with my garands
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,640
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,640 |
interesting,. I just bought a rem 700 long range 30-06 to go along with my garands Should have bought a 03A3..
It's a great life if you don't weaken..
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,639
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,639 |
interesting,. I just bought a rem 700 long range 30-06 to go along with my garands The 30-o6 is soooooo passe. Why not a 6.5 Creed.............even the name just sounds sooooo cool. Besides, if you ain't got a 6.5, you ain't got schitt..............so says a bumper sticker. Just wondering what's taking the Spec Ops & Marines so long to replace all their 338 Lapua's & 300's with it. MM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,148 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,148 Likes: 1 |
So the OP signs up, makes one post edjumicating the masses, and POOF!
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,197
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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It's not even April 1st........
Luck....is the residue of design...
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 40
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 40 |
From reading the Op's post you would think that you have to do/ Spend alot to hunt over 400 yards. Guess the elk we killed from 600-800 on factory bullets were multiple flukes?
I enjoy his position about accuracy and competition, but does he know how big an elk is?
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,878 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2009
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There's a big difference between hunters and shooters, there is some cross over but not as much as you would think. Rio7
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Posts: 817
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2010
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It's not even April 1st........ What happens on April 1st? my birthday aint till the 20th. Never met a serious target shooter who was any fun being around. lol
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