Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire If We Had Stuck With the M 14....?

Project Eldest Son

I'm no expert,no military service. I do own a FAL and an ar15. The M14 was phased out due to the fact that it requires quite a bit of machining to produce the parts it uses. Even today with cnc machines those parts rack up some man-hours and it gets expensive. I have a cheap cai FAL that has never failed to function,there are some thing I would change about it,but it always ran (except one time I put the wrong springs in the wrong place ;)) .It is solid steel and damn heavy to think about carrying a long distance. I did spend some time working in a place where they parts for the ar15,and despite that still own one. If I had one complaint it's the ar15 runs when wet,and dies when dry. Just my 2 cents.

I'm not going to go too much into the M16 vs M14 debate except to say we'd have filled a lot more body bags over the last 50 years if we were still using the M14.

As far as the AR-15 and 2A are concerned consider this. When the original AWB took effect in 1994 AR-15's were not at all common. It was easy to single them out and ban them because there were only a handful of owners. But in the 24 years since 1994 the AR rifle has become the single most popular and common rifle in this country. The most recent numbers I can find estimate about 14 million AR's in this country, and that was 2013. I'd not be at all surprised if the actual number today is closer to 20 million.

Just for perspective, it took Winchester and Marlin 124 years to sell 14 million 30-30's. That is combined between the 2 companies. Remington has made about 7 million model 700's. In just a few years AR ownership in this country will just about equal the combined sales of 3 of the most popular rifles combined. And every time someone mentions banning them it accounts for another million rifles sold

That is a lot of people who would be affected by a potential ban unlike 1994. It makes it a LOT harder to justify banning the most popular and common rifle ever produced. And if someone does, what do you do with the ones already in circulation. No one is going to come up with the money to buy them back, and I don't think anyone is really dumb enough to try confiscation.

You may not care for giving up the AR's. But if they can take AR's, everything else will be easy.

We were required to qualify with both the M-14 and M-16 in Infantry AIT.
Practically to a man everyone scored some lower with the M-16 than they did the M-14.
Even those who qualified for the "Expert" badge with both the M-14 and M-16 did so with lower total scores firing the M-16 than with the M-14.

The Virginia Tech shooter used a Glock 19 and a Walther P22 to kill 32 people. Don't tell me they'll stop at ARs.





P

Glad you fellas figured out the truth of it already.

I've heard so much BS about the M1 Carbine, M14 and M16 in my years I have to laff a little now and again. Couple of thoughts and some hysterical historical perspective for you to gnaw on:

-Any of you thinking the carbine won't penetrate cold weather clothing, will you stand out of the 50 yard line for me a sec? I didn't think so.
-Anyone here think "compromise" is a good idea for a combat weapon? Probably not if you're the one toting the damn thing around.
-Is it possible that all military arms were designed for an operational window that may or may not be superior to other arms? Recall that Whitefeather used a bolt gun in Nam and tunnel rats carried a 1911 mostly. Trench warfare has it's own parameters etc. etc. etc....
-Any of you realize the carbine was intended to upgrade the firepower of pistol packing troopers rather than a replacement for another rifle/weapon?
-You want a semi-auto for CQC ops? Probably not. Full auto, light and agile if you're walking point thru the jungle with 20-30 meters vis? Yeah, I'll betcha.
-.30 carbine and 5.56mm aren't lethal enough? Tell that to all the crap I've seen killed with them. That includes people, elephant(1), water buff (a bunch), and of course, pigs/deer. I never saw anyone survive a hit with a 5.56mm in Nam, not in 2.5 years. I did see a lot of folks survive a hit from AKs, SKSs, and RPDs. I picked up a dink one day that had been perforated by a minigun 21 times, about 20 minutes before they stuffed him in the back of the chopper. He survived a 20 min flight to the EVAC hospital but died in the ER. We did have a lot of blood in the bird, choppers are breezy things.
-Jam-o-matics? The only FTF I've ever experienced with a M1 Carbine was due to faulty ammo and I've probably run somewhere around 2000-2500 rounds thru military rifles and the Auto Ordinance version I have at present. During the first tour in Nam I ran about a truck load of ammo thru my issue -16. It got rinsed with JP4 a couple of time and I squirted some LSA in it periodically and it never jammed. Not once. Half the rifling was gone when I turned it in at the end of tour, yet it still hit what I shot at. Use was as appropriate when giving OJT to new pilots and acting as the observer in Air Cav scout missions, mostly in free fire zones. Did that for 10 months, about 12-15 pilots. About 5-10 days flying with each before they were turned loose and I typically shot 600-1000 rds per day over the course of 3-5 missions/daily. Now and again the gunner's M60 would crap out and they would use my -16. About month 8 and all the -60s were retired and all gunners used -16s. Charlie kept dyin' w/o interruption.

Feel free to ignore all this, it's just what I saw and experienced over the last 50 years or so.

Good post, sir.

Plus 1

I'll ad to my earlier comments, the M1A feels MUCH better to both my wife and I. So we were kind of anti AR until the bullets came along that made the AR the better choice for service rifle competition. We started with the gun when there were not better parts yet, etc... But much to our amazement we ended up shooting better, faster, cleaner, and less jams or breakage on gun parts vs the M1As.

If I felt the need for more gun I'd grab it in an instant. But for general use I just don't see it.

I've not even bought a 6.8 though I do have a 6.8 necked to 6 to play with and shot a handful of game with it, but to be honest, I never saw much difference and haven't shot that gun in a long time. Not when I have a 223 and a mag of barnes or 75/77 bthps on hand.

I have shot my nephews AR in x39 quite a bit too, enough to know one to play with would be fun, but he has had his for YEARs, and I've yet to run into a situation where I thought I needed more than the 223 to buy an X39

I did buy a 50 beowulf due to my wifes request and shot some stuff with it but its not really all that impressive to me either. But for moving to AK, with hard cast 500s in the mag it'll be handy by the door of the house or to pack out on the back as a lighter rifle but more power than most handguns.

No flies on the AR platform at this time.

FWIW I served after Vietnam, but at a time when pretty near all our SNCOs had been there. The opinion of the L1A1 among them was universally very positive, including among those who'd been in intense firefights. The opinion of the M16, which was issued to scouts, was less positive, though it was a great deal higher than opinion of the submachine guns it had replaced. The L1A1 was well loved among soldiers generally.

I personally liked the L1A1 too, and still do. I never had any issue with its weight. The ammunition is heavy though, as are the mags, and there's no doubt that this limits the amount you can carry. There again though, with semi-auto only you don't go through it as fast as you do with an automatic rifle.

Good summary of why it will very difficult to ban AR-15's at the federal level. Most of the danger is at the state level. In places like California and New York and increasingly in other blue and purple states, the state governments just don't care if some percentage of the population is unhappy with a ban. I agree that if they were to successfully ban AR-15's they would soon be coming for other guns.

As to the rifle, I like them. I don't have a military background, but I shoot AR's all the time in various action shooting competitions and in my experience they work great and good ones are quite accurate. Competitions are not like fighting a battle out in the dirt and sand, but they exercise the gun pretty well and I don't remember the last time I had a malfunction. I also think the AR-15 is a great self defense weapon as long as you use the right bullets.

Damn, that is the most compelling statement I have read on the 'fire, ever!

so, Ruger dropped it - after only 3 prototypes were made.

Pretty much any spitzer bullet will yaw and tend to swap ends on impact, just due the fact that the centre of mass is to the rear and, in flesh, the rifling can no longer stabilise it to keep it there. This was first noted very early in the development of the type, long before the 5.56 was conceived. The British in particular sought to enhance the effect by using a lightweight filler in the nose of their Mk VII bullet for the .303, not long after they were compelled to drop soft point and hollow point designs as a result of the Hague Conventions.

Here, from 1915:



per Lt Col E. M. Pilcher D.S.O., R.A.M.C. in J R Army Med Corps 1915 24:612-614

The 55 gn M193 in the M16 had an enhanced effectiveness because not only did it yaw and tend to swap ends, but it was comparatively fragile, and tended to break up as it did so, with fracture typically initiated at the cannelure, and fragmentation contributing significantly to wounding.

Who should I believe.....DD, who on many occasions faced the enemy in actual combat.....or the loudmouth behind the keyboard?

P.S,

By the time I went through Basic in 1985, there were no real problems with the M-16A1.
Later when I was issues an A2 I had a grand total of ZERO issues with them, period.

I don't understand.

Why is it that they guy's who've actually fired hundreds of thousand of rounds though the M-16/AR-15 platform actually like them, but the keyboard commando's who've never picked one up don't?

Because they live in a different world. Generally to stubborn to accept or even try the new on for size. Yet they generally do not still ride horses to work, but drive newer vehicles.... amazing at times.

Bayou: "even the 270 Win were used for sniper operations in Viet Nam". Interesting. First I have heard of it, Any references because I have also never heard of a FMJ bullet. Not saying it did not happen it is just news to me. Thanks.

I have to take issue, but you are wrong.

If you think the left will be satisfied with banning the AR platform, you are an idiot.

Going to post a few pics and let this dog lay.

The boots in the pic below belonged to a Nguyen that was hiding with one of his buddies in a 36" culvert pipe that was residue from an unfinished construction project at the A Shau airstrip, somewhat notorious locale over the years. I was doing the OJT thing as we scooted across the valley floor toward Hamburger Hill to do a battle damage assessment (BDA) between the Hill and Tiger Mountain. A Spectre gunship had wasted a NVA convoy a few hours previous and we where there in the dawn's early light to check it out. I forget the amount of vehicles they had wasted, but it was up in the 40s or a bit more. Catch 'em on a razor back ridge, pop the first and last, have a good time; one of those deals.

Anyway, we were motoring along and as we approached the pipe I saw two of Ho's finest staring at us. Stitched the pipe as we went over, scared the pee out of the new guy and after we turned around this is what we found a few yards from the pipe. I did not shoot into the open end of the pipe, but spent the full mag shooting thru the pipe wall as we went over, about 30' above. Standard issue 5.56 ball, no tricky dicky stuff involved. Maybe 3/32-1/8" wall on that pipe? Guess on my part, but suffice to say it wasn't enough. Boot's partner was still in the pipe.



The other way around: All ammo used by the NVA for their 7.62 weapons was steel core, or what we would call AP. Took a hit one day from about 30 yards distance in one of the minigun barrels. Spun the barrel 180* and the observer took a wee piece of shrapnel in the side of his left hand. He told me fair quick not to shoot the gun and the Cobras jumped all over Charlie as we split. The wee brown spot centered in the hole is the heel of the AP core.



Point of all this is to suggest that common dogma may not be reliable information about what to expect from various combat arms. Shoot what you got, buy what you want, but remember you aren't shooting silver bullets most days. Little bit of common sense will go a long way toward defining what a weapon system can, will, and might do.

DD