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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,245 Likes: 11 |
Here's a medium antlered, old warrior mule deer from the Bitterroot I took with a .204 Ruger and the awesome 45 grain Hornady. ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/Uzbs9Mu.jpg) It's about as small as I would go with deer, though I am tempted to whack one via .22 K hornet and 35 VMax this year, due to reports I have heard from others. I don't think I would try the .17 Rem on deer, though it is a coyote splat'n SOB with the Remington 25 grain HP. There's got to be a limit somewhere, but it sure as hell isn't at the .22 CFs---for me at least. They're incredibly efficient with good bullets.
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
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Bullet design and placement is everything -............ And failure to always and every time get the latter part is why the headstamp (or bore size) becomes important.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
I don't think I would try the .17 Rem on deer, though it is a coyote splat'n SOB with the Remington 25 grain HP.
I bought a 17 Rem from a fellow who thought it was the cat's meow for moose with factory ammo. Placement is the trump card over all else. 
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Apr 2011
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Campfire Regular
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Judman, that is an outstanding Rosie, I have hunted them and killed a few but have never seen one like that. He is outstanding.
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I shot a large mule deer buck way back in the day, with a 22-50 with 55 grain PSP's he let me put two in his near shoulder and then walked off a couple of miles. If he had not been out in the desert I would have lost him, for sure. I was able to sight trail him most of the way. I lots say you can kill deer with them, you can but other cartridges are far better.
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Joined: Apr 2011
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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The small calibers are great, when every thing works perfectly, when it doesn't they are not so great. Mass and horse power may get the job done,
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Disagree Brad, you cant tell me that a 110 grain Varmint bullet from a .300 ultra mag will matter more than a 180 grainer on moose...no matter where it’s placed.
I think they all go hand in hand. Do you just like to start chit? Why would you even bring up 110 varmint bullets from a ultra mag on moose?
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Joined: Apr 2011
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Campfire Regular
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I have also heard the stories about clients and others unable to mange the recoil of some of the magnum calibers. In fact I have helped a couple of hunters retrieve animals, that they didn't even know they killed, primarily because their eyes were closed. And the 06 is an excellent choice. My first dozen elk were killed with the an 06. I still have it after 60 years, its now a 35 Whelen that I have hunted western Washington with, a few times. However in my 60 plus years in the woods, hunting primarily elk, and mule deer in the early years, the most caliber failures were with center fire 22 calibers, and .243. At least two un-recovered deer with the 22 caliber, and 5 elk with the .243. I have lost one and that was last fall, 120 yards standing facing me, slightly down hill, hit with a 160 grain AB, at 3100 or so out of a 7 mm Mashburn. He was DRT, snow plowed 30 yards into the timber and never found or saw again. He had 40 or so friends with him and my best assumption is that I hit him just high enough to miss the heart and travel back through him. The bullet did not exit, . I looked for over 2 hours and not a drop of blood or sign anywhere.
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Campfire Regular
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[quote=Judman]...
Please inform us uninformed where a rimfire .22 is legal for elk? Certainly not in WA. Inquiring minds want to know. Happy Trails Montana..."There are no rifle or handgun caliber limitation..."
SAVE 200 ELK, KILL A WOLF
NRA Endowment Life Member
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"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,245 Likes: 11
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,245 Likes: 11 |
I have also heard the stories about clients and others unable to mange the recoil of some of the magnum calibers. In fact I have helped a couple of hunters retrieve animals, that they didn't even know they killed, primarily because their eyes were closed. And the 06 is an excellent choice. My first dozen elk were killed with the an 06. I still have it after 60 years, its now a 35 Whelen that I have hunted western Washington with, a few times. However in my 60 plus years in the woods, hunting primarily elk, and mule deer in the early years, the most caliber failures were with center fire 22 calibers, and .243. At least two un-recovered deer with the 22 caliber, and 5 elk with the .243. I have lost one and that was last fall, 120 yards standing facing me, slightly down hill, hit with a 160 grain AB, at 3100 or so out of a 7 mm Mashburn. He was DRT, snow plowed 30 yards into the timber and never found or saw again. He had 40 or so friends with him and my best assumption is that I hit him just high enough to miss the heart and travel back through him. The bullet did not exit, . I looked for over 2 hours and not a drop of blood or sign anywhere. So, are you recommending something bigger than a 7 Mashburn and 160 accubond, or not shooting them while they're facing you for a Dead Right There/never see them again effect?
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Joined: Dec 2008
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Campfire Regular
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Disagree Brad, you cant tell me that a 110 grain Varmint bullet from a .300 ultra mag will matter more than a 180 grainer on moose...no matter where it’s placed. Yeah, but that's just stupid. Hopefully you know that. It should go without saying (seemingly not on this forum) that the bullet should be appropriate to the game and cartridge... bullets are so good today, any C&C bullet designed for BG will work at average velocities. My criteria: 1) Placementp 2) Placement 3) Placement 4) Bullet 5) Cartridge But please, do tell your observations killing elk... All the perfect shooters like to make their case for the perfect shot. When that shot isn’t perfect, the larger calibers and the damage they do will have an advantage to the smaller calibers, that is undeniable. The preponderance of shooting big game with small bullets never ends on this site. Hopefully people will eliminate all the possibilities for failure and hunt with the best cartridge they can effectively use.
I was thinking the other day how much I used to hate Bill Clinton. He was freaking George Washington compared to what they are now.
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,648 |
Disagree Brad, you cant tell me that a 110 grain Varmint bullet from a .300 ultra mag will matter more than a 180 grainer on moose...no matter where it’s placed. Yeah, but that's just stupid. Hopefully you know that. It should go without saying (seemingly not on this forum) that the bullet should be appropriate to the game and cartridge... bullets are so good today, any C&C bullet designed for BG will work at average velocities. My criteria: 1) Placementp 2) Placement 3) Placement 4) Bullet 5) Cartridge But please, do tell your observations killing elk... Hopefully people will eliminate all the possibilities for failure and hunt with the best cartridge they can effectively use. That ain't gonna eliminate all possibilities, which is the point....
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Joined: Feb 2013
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Well said both of the above posters!
I personally feel that elk are very fit and extremely stoic and herd bound. Especially when hunting greenfield depredation hunts where they DO NOT feel safe even before engaging.
Placement is king!
Therefore 2 get good placement......triggers, crowns, scope mounts, scope rings, good scopes, accurate range estimation, practice practice practice and GETTING A GOOD REST trumps bullet or headstamp. Just braying.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
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Joined: Apr 2011
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Campfire Regular
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Inman
So, are you recommending something bigger than a 7 Mashburn and 160 accubond, or not shooting them while they're facing you for a Dead Right There/never see them again effect?
Nope,sillyone, I was merely pointing out that even with cartridge packing more than enough horsepower things can go wrong, I am sure that most here figured that out. By the way i was prone, one the bi pod, and in no hurry, but [bleep] happens. Why take the chance by using a very light caliber when things can go wrong using more than enough gun.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,286 |
I have lost one and that was last fall, 120 yards standing facing me, slightly down hill, hit with a 160 grain AB, at 3100 or so out of a 7 mm Mashburn. He was DRT, snow plowed 30 yards into the timber and never found or saw again. He had 40 or so friends with him and my best assumption is that I hit him just high enough to miss the heart and travel back through him. The bullet did not exit, . I looked for over 2 hours and not a drop of blood or sign anywhere. Nope,sillyone, I was merely pointing out that even with cartridge packing more than enough horsepower things can go wrong, I am sure that most here figured that out. By the way i was prone, one the bi pod, and in no hurry, but [bleep] happens. Why take the chance by using a very light caliber when things can go wrong using more than enough gun. We all make mistakes, that's a fact, and I've made more than my share. The point is to learn from those mistakes.The lesson found in your story shouldn't be "things can go wrong using more than enough gun." The lesson is placement. A frontal chest shot on a bull is not one I'd take. In your scenario, if the bull wouldn't turn (given time they'll usually give a better shot) I'd have shot it in the throat where there's all sorts of accessible stuff (carotid artery, spine).
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
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have perused the 24hourcampfire for years and i appreciate the lessons learned from you guys. My takeaway for hunters is this:
1. know your personal limitations and optimize the bullet diameter, weight, and performance for the game you seek and the shots you are willing to take.
2. use as much gun as you can shoot well given 1.
3. blood trails are good things to have
4. things will go wrong. plan for stuff going wrong, and plan accordingly
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Centershot......why do you not like the SST bullet?
I have a similar perception of the SST.....but have had most excellent results with the FTX line in the 300 savage.
I have a hard time believing there is much difference if any between the SST and the FTX. Must be all in my head. They have blown up on everything I have ever shot with them. Shot a beded mule deer buck at about 60 yards with a 150gr SST - acted like a varmint bullet. Shot a broadside mule deer buck at about 75 yards with a 180gr SST and did not get an exit!. Shot a broadside 5 point bull at 180 yards - bullet hit behind the shoulder and ended up (pieces anyway) in his spine. Same shots with Interlocks or Partitions result in 2 holes right across from each other. This is with a 30-06, not some super high velocity round. Too bad because they shoot excellent out of my rifle.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 24,851 |
Disagree Brad, you cant tell me that a 110 grain Varmint bullet from a .300 ultra mag will matter more than a 180 grainer on moose...no matter where it’s placed.
I think they all go hand in hand. Do you just like to start chit? Why would you even bring up 110 varmint bullets from a ultra mag on moose? My point was that I do not believe it is about placement ONLY I stated that placement plus bullets go hand in hand, not just placement only, my case I used was eccentric I agree but it proves that you have to have both not just one. I do agree though placement is key and extremely important but not without property suited bullets. I think Brad and I agree more on this subject than he thinks but his response was pretty much pussyage.
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Inman
So, are you recommending something bigger than a 7 Mashburn and 160 accubond, or not shooting them while they're facing you for a Dead Right There/never see them again effect?
Nope,sillyone, I was merely pointing out that even with cartridge packing more than enough horsepower things can go wrong, I am sure that most here figured that out. By the way i was prone, one the bi pod, and in no hurry, but [bleep] happens. Why take the chance by using a very light caliber when things can go wrong using more than enough gun.
Gotcha. I'm not a huge fan of frontal shots, for what sounds like the same reason you are.
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