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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
Bob Milek was onto something quite a few years ago. Past a certain point, efficiency goes out the window. Certain cartridges hit the sweet point, 6.5 Creedmoor being one.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 697
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 697 |
There have been more than a few PRS wins and top ten finishes with factory Hornady match ammo in both 6mm and 6.5 Creedmoor. Perhaps one can eke out a couple tenths with some inanity such as sorting cases, and weighing every powder charge, etc...or you can go shoot.
I dont even own a 6 or 6.5 Creedmoor...but one has to be quite dense not to comprehend the attraction for those who dont, or cant, reload. I don't doubt that it happened once, but to claim that it's as easy as that to win a national match is absurd. Pure Fantasy....
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 697
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 697 |
They sure as hell didnt win anything with cheap factory ammo. My whole beef was with the statement that all you need for the creed is "cheap factory ammo". As you go up in price, the ammo quality gets better, but the cheap stuff sucks. Hornady makes some of the worst cheap factory ammo. Out of about 10 boxes of Hornady creed and 708, I got 3 misfires, and one etched bolt face. Compared to one misfire, and zero bolt face etch in over 20k handloads using cci br4 and cci large mag primers.
I really don't get why anyone who shoots more than a few boxes of shells a year wouldn't reload. All you need is a couple of Wilson hand dies, a rubber mallet, a beam scale, and a few plastic bits to make better ammo than most reloaders out there do. If one looks around, it would cost much more than $100.
If you’re having that many issues with any major ammo, you need to check your rifles. Define “cheap”. I consider $22-$24 a box of match ammo “cheap”. You can win national level matches with 6.5 Creedmoor ammo from Walmart. I’ve shot right at 4,000 rounds of “factory” match ammo this year. It isn’t worth reloading for it, as factory 6mm and 6.5mm Creedmoor match ammo from Hornady and Federal can, and will win any standard sniper/precision match in the country. Same guns with that used cci primers. It's not the gun.
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 697
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 697 |
I finally realized why qwk's Campfire "name" was so memorable. One a thread a year or two ago he claimed to have fired .1" (that's 1/10th of an inch) 5-shot groups at 100 yards with an unaltered Kimber and handloads put together with standard RCBS expander-ball dies. No BS, it happened. The gun was allowed to cool between shots. I like to experiment, with my own money, and have no bias. The majority of your posts I agree with, but for some reason you are biased in favor of the creed. I get your points about mag length, and twist, but the creeds success is marketing hype only. Using a gun with the same twist and a matched mag length, the other two calibers have an edge on it, especially the 260, as good older 308 brass is everywhere(the newer non lapua brass sucks).
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,647
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,647 |
I finally realized why qwk's Campfire "name" was so memorable. One a thread a year or two ago he claimed to have fired .1" (that's 1/10th of an inch) 5-shot groups at 100 yards with an unaltered Kimber and handloads put together with standard RCBS expander-ball dies. No BS, it happened. The gun was allowed to cool between shots. I like to experiment, with my own money, and have no bias. The majority of your posts I agree with, but for some reason you are biased in favor of the creed. I get your points about mag length, and twist, but the creeds success is marketing hype only. Using a gun with the same twist and a matched mag length, the other two calibers have an edge on it, especially the 260, as good older 308 brass is everywhere(the newer non lapua brass sucks). Laughing... Keep telling yourself that...
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,057
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,057 |
There is no such thing as cheap quality factory ammo. You get what you pay for. Today's cheap factory ammo plain sucks. There is a reason that the cost is almost the same as it was 25-30 years ago. This is hardly the case....but especially so in the 6.5 Creedmoor. I have yet to find a factory load that exceeded the accuracy of a reload. Most use Winchester primers, which fail to fire now and again(at the worst time of course), and then some etch your bolt face when they crack around the edge. Then you add in the s h I t t y quality brass of the cheap box of shells, and cheap becomes expensive. It's kind of like how most members of the fire cannot figure out that Lapua brass is cheaper in the long run, because it lasts 3-5X longer than other brands. This is stuff you figure out by actually shooting, instead of posting s h i t you have no clue about. So, how much factory ammo have you actually shot? I have come across some that was superbly accurate. It wasn't expensive either, it was the cheap $hit, and some of it was from my creedmoor. But this is stuff you figure out by actually shooting, instead of posting $hit you have no clue about Enough to know its a waste of money. What is superbly accurate mean to you? You can argue the factory ammo point all you want, but the fact remains that its rarely, if ever more accurate than handloads. Quarter inch groups at 100 yards is pretty superb im my book. It might be a waist of money to you, but to someone who doesn't handload its a Godsend. It just so happens I do reload, so I can make the comparison. Oh, and ammo is not almost the same price it was 20-30 years ago, I was there.
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes."
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,081
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,081 |
qwk,
I'm so happy you agree with the majority of my posts.
Unfortunately, I don't agree with yours. Sorry!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 697
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 697 |
qwk,
I'm so happy you agree with the majority of my posts.
Unfortunately, I don't agree with yours. Sorry! Thats fine, doesn't hurt my feelings one bit. One thing is for sure though, I don't get paid to post my opinions....
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,081
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,081 |
And a good thing too! If you did, somebody would be asking for their money back.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,468
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,468 |
Well I give up.. The 6.5 Creedmoor is wonderful, and to a new hunter, buyer I would definitely have it on the short list as a recommended rifle combo especially with all it's advantages and proven capabilities. My problem is all the HYPE. I have two 6.5's that can beat anything it will do. A 6.5X55 in a Sako Finnbear, and a Styer SBS in 6.5X57. YES there both cost more than average, and I hand load each round. Both with tailored loads will shoot .5 MOA at 100yards for 5. The Sako with Lapua match ammo off the shelve will do the same. (Yes Lapua ammo is expensive) Neither has the "magical" short action. I can live with a couple of ounces.. LOL. I shoot the same DANG bullets at or above the Creedmoor's velocities (not really that important) What is the 6.5 Creedmoor's advantage to me? Not a dang thing. To others perhaps the best thing since sliced bread..
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,084
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,084 |
This Creed business sure does bring out emotions and angst.
It's not too unlike Louisiana Governor Huey P. Long, who was fond of saying he didn't care what they said about him, as long as they spelled his name right.
Steve Hornady, Dave Emary and team Hornady sure are getting a lot of free publicity. Ole Huey would be proud.
DF
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,167
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 21,167 |
And a good thing too! If you did, somebody would be asking for their money back. Haha god damn that’s funny
Ping pong balls for the win.
Once you've wrestled everything else in life is easy. Dan Gable
I keep my circle small, I’d rather have 4 quarters than 100 pennies.
Ain’t easy havin pals.
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 24,638
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 24,638 |
And a good thing too! If you did, somebody would be asking for their money back. ![[Linked Image]](https://i.imgur.com/96EngEX.gif)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/X0n16mr.png) WWP53D
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
Dammit...stop it already!!!  I am quite content with my Model 70 Swede. However, while reading through this thread, I have once again been tempted, actually cogitated momentarily on a logical way to justify one of these economical tack drivers. (It can be justified from several angles actually.) I DON"T NEED MORE RIFLES! Please Stop (or send money.......I'll need another safe too.  )
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,081
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,081 |
I don't need more rifles either, and in fact already have eight 6.5mm's, five of which are very similar in ballistics: 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x57R, .260 Remington, and a pair of 6.5x55's.
But am thinking of another one, to fit the "hole" between the 6.5x55 and 26 Nosler/6.5-300 Weatherby. Will know more after I test a loaner in that new and magical 6.5 in the next week or two....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 |
308 factory ammo. ![[Linked Image]](https://s19.postimg.cc/hxno1ti9v/4_DB5_F554-56_B3-4369-8_F89-_A7_AB452303_BC.jpg)
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 |
If you look toward the lower right corner of the target... yup, the target was sweating.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,468
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,468 |
There we go, a 6.5 Creedmoor Super Short Fat Magnum... It would be like potato chips, you can't just have one.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 17,230
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 17,230 |
The group I posted earlier was one (of many) groups by a Ruger American Predator and ammo I got for less that $25/box. Injection molded plastic stock and all. If that’s not cheap accuracy I certainly don’t know what is. Most of my hand loads with 140 ELDs, 140 Bergers, 139 Scenars and 140 Partitions we’re in the .4-.6 range. Light bullets like the 125 Partition or 123 Scenars were more like .7. All without ever playing with seating depth. Only bullet that did not shoot well at any one powder charge was the 120 E-Tip. Maybe playing with seating depth would have helped.
Edit: I’m hoping the Fieldcraft I’m waiting to get back shoots almost as well!  An honest man! wouldn't that be hell?
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
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Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,716 |
Jeepers, some of you guys are a hoot. It wasn't too long ago that people were poopooing plastic stocks, magazines, and the pillar bedding performed on stocks made from recycled milk jugs.  Ruger, Savage, etc. are pumping out less expensive rifles that shoot better than custom jobs of 20+ years ago. It might be my military background, but I think plastic has become a success not only because of the lower cost, but it is easier to work with. Put the advances in technology into a rifle, add a good cartridge and you've got magic. Let's not forget that the tech put into the rifles helps cartridges like the Creedmoor shine. Don't forget to give the boys at Ruger and Savage a pat on the back. Or just buy Tikkas. And fire sale them Rems.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
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