|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,832
Campfire Tracker
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,832 |
I was talking to a friend yesterday who said he was told that 223s with FMJs are good game bullets because they always tumble and create large wound channels. Iv'e read articles in the past debunking this theory, and recall that it was an issue early on with our troops in Viet Nam.
Anyone have a link to a somewhat comprehensive discussion on this issue. thanks
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,313
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 4,313 |
Brushbuster: "Is this thread about the dear heard or there Jeans?"
Plugger: "If you cant be safe at strip club in Detroit at 2am is anywhere safe?"
Deer are somewhere all the time
To report a post you disagree with, please push Alt + F4. Thank You.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,426
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,426 |
That was the bull that we were told in Jarhead land, when we were given that POS called a M16.
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,735
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,735 |
I almost freaked when I looked inside the forearm half of my Basic Training (Army) M16A1 and it read "Made by Mattel".  I also noticed how a not so hard wind would blow my bullet off the 300M silhouette about 3 ft! The wind at Grafenvoehr, Germany blew it 6 feet over, onto the next grunts target! I kept an eye on the spare M60 in the supply truck in case those Krazy Ivans came across the border!
Last edited by Jim_Knight; 05/18/18.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,076
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,076 |
Early M16's had a 1/14 twist rate. The 55gr ball round was known to tumble after impact. The M16A1 had a 1/12 twist, it was also known to tumble bullets after impact.
The M16A2 and later have 1/7 twist. Tumbling is probably not so prevalent with the faster twist, but the bullets are known to fragment at higher impact velocity, I believe around 2500+ fps.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317 |
223's or 5.56's with FMJ's are a poor choice for use on game. A 62-75 gr expanding game bullet is a much better choice.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 269
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 269 |
Some of the Anti-gunners are claiming that tumbling 5.56 FMJs are soooo much more lethal than any other available bullet of any weight or diameter. James Fallows at Atlantic Online has been thumping the tub for an AR ban since February(at least) and has repeated that tumbling business in support of his claim that ARs were designed as "military killing machines of unusual lethality". Fallows, having been in the service in Viet Nam considers himself quite the expert on the ballistics of .223/5.56 mm FMJ service loads.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,428
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 13,428 |
I have seen the XM193 55 grain bullet tumble and break up on game many times. Sometimes it doesn't happen and you get a not so straight thin wound channel.
Dog I rescued in January ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/yYDjsxrQ/IMG-0124.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,426
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 10,426 |
Some of the Anti-gunners are claiming that tumbling 5.56 FMJs are soooo much more lethal than any other available bullet of any weight or diameter. James Fallows at Atlantic Online has been thumping the tub for an AR ban since February(at least) and has repeated that tumbling business in support of his claim that ARs were designed as "military killing machines of unusual lethality". Fallows, having been in the service in Viet Nam considers himself quite the expert on the ballistics of .223/5.56 mm FMJ service loads. Sorry, but that guy sounds like a "piece of work." Honestly, I see absolutely no use, for me at least, for FMJ bullets. I do not understand why anyone would want them. Solids in a 416 yes, solid cast bullets yes, but FMJ doesn't make any sense at all unless having to follow a Geneva convention or something.
Last edited by Bugger; 05/18/18.
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,242 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,242 Likes: 3 |
Any pointy FMJ bullet is prone to destabilize and tumble when it encounters resistance on the front end. All the weight is in the rear. Apply the front brakes and naturally the rear wants to come around. That's why FMJ's/solids intended for heavy African game and deep, straight line penetration are all blunt nosed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,487 |
That was the bull that we were told in Jarhead land, when we were given that POS called a M16. And then someone fixed a few minor issues that all new guns have when they come out and even the jarheads realized the platform was solid enough that it lasted longer than the M14, in fact so much so that its lasted 50 plus years or so....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 14,718 Likes: 2
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 14,718 Likes: 2 |
Yes, they do tumble. Just like any other pointed bullet that doesn't mushroom to a flat point. And they fragment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO ![[Linked Image]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/M16_5.56x45mm_wound_ballistics.gif) They don't always do this, but if the velocity is high enough, they are shredders. ETA: I remember when my cousin got home from VN in '70. He told us he washed his M16 in streams and how it was like a death ray on dinks. He loved it.
Last edited by Tyrone; 05/18/18.
Politics is War by Other Means
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,669
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,669 |
I don't know if the late Dr. Fackler is the last word on all this, but this article is certainly a good place to start: https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/wounding_patterns_military_rifles.pdf
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 17,230 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 17,230 Likes: 2 |
don't have a reference handy, but I read at one time that there was more of the projectile coming apart at the cannelure than tumbling. some thought that a cannelure would give you fragmentation in a bullet that still met the standard of the hague Agreement or Geneva convention?
...Actually Sycamore, you are sort of right....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,832
Campfire Tracker
|
|
OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,832 |
thanks, S of the G. Interesting read!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,669
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,669 |
don't have a reference handy, but I read at one time that there was more of the projectile coming apart at the cannelure than tumbling. some thought that a cannelure would give you fragmentation in a bullet that still met the standard of the hague Agreement or Geneva convention?
Fackler mentions the breaking at the cannelure and fragmentation of the rear part.
'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
----------------------------------------------
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)
SotG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,986
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,986 |
don't have a reference handy, but I read at one time that there was more of the projectile coming apart at the cannelure than tumbling. some thought that a cannelure would give you fragmentation in a bullet that still met the standard of the hague Agreement or Geneva convention? That was part of the same study from which Tyrone posted pictures above. In general out of a 20" barrel and under 200 yards the M193 projectile with cannelure will fragment. The M855......not so much unless it's going through equipment, such as a chest right full of magazines first.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,154 Likes: 12
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,154 Likes: 12 |
Recollection has it a fatal shot from a -16 required at least one jerk of the trigger. Pigs, deer, dinks, ele....didn't seem to make a difference.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,898
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,898 |
I almost freaked when I looked inside the forearm half of my Basic Training (Army) M16A1 and it read "Made by Mattel". I also noticed how a not so hard wind would blow my bullet off the 300M silhouette about 3 ft! The wind at Grafenvoehr, Germany blew it 6 feet over, onto the next grunts target! I kept an eye on the spare M60 in the supply truck in case those Krazy Ivans came across the border! You shot the next guy's target. Unless the wind just happened to be blowing 60mph, which is what it takes to blow the M193 six feet at 300 meters. As for Mattel, there's never been any proof, other than anecdotes by guys who claim they saw them, come to the surface that Mattel made handguards (and they sure as hell didn't make M16s).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,540
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,540 |
In any case, when they took away our M-14s and forced the early M-16s on us, we figured they might as well have been made by Mattel. After we handled them awhile, and shot them a bunch, we were even more convinced that they were probably made by Mattel. "You can tell it's Mattel...it's swell!" That was the jingle in the Mattel toy commercials, for you young guys not old enough to remember those days.
We used to tease our fellow Marines about their "swell" rifles.
Last edited by nifty-two-fifty; 05/19/18.
Nifty-250
"If you don't know where you're going, you may wind up somewhere else".
Yogi Berra
|
|
|
|
|
584 members (06hunter59, 007FJ, 1234, 10ring1, 12344mag, 10gaugeman, 58 invisible),
2,225
guests, and
1,257
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,257
Posts18,486,360
Members73,967
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
