Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .22 RF alternatives

OK, I get it now. Pretty much what Ed suggested would work. Or maybe a .410. One stray thought, cast bullets made with linotype pretty much shatter when they hit anything hard.

I use a .17 HMR now and have had no problems. But what you are experimenting with sounds like a better idea. Being that it is reloadable and not to noisy.

Ken, lemme get a mile or so further down this path and I'll see if I can kluge up a test for this jewel and some lino bullets in regards to fragmentation/ricochets. You know me, always ready for the weird and not so obvious.

Another thought occurs that is a bit outside the box perhaps, but if a fella wanted some sport with squill without causing a ruckus he might consider use of BB caps. Target below was shot with a 4.5mm Zimmerstutzen rifle at 50' offhand. MV is about 800 fps. I've a fair supply of .22 caliber BB caps and have found them as precise as my CB shorts out of the Contender with a short chambered barrel, velocity the same. They are not silent from the 20" barrel, but some years ago I plinked a few with a 26" barrel and all I heard was the firing pin strike and a whap on the other end. I have no need to try it, but likewise no doubt they would kill a pig with a careful shot. They kill squill dead as a doorknob and that's a natural fact, proven here in the swamps.



FYI, BB caps are primer powered, no gunpowder used or abused. Of course if you want warp drive a pinch or two might get you there. Trying to get my mind wrapped around CF primed BB cap cases here.....gonna be tough..........

Thanks Dan.

Offhand at 50’? That’s petty decent shooting!!😊

It is, but I don't claim responsibility for that. Some cowboy from out in the Montana/Wyoming area that goes by SPG (Steve Garbe) did that one and another dozen targets sent with the piece pictured below.. Free tip for anyone that cares, if you ever get in a match with him as one of the contestants, aim for 2d place 'cause there's little chance of takin' 1st. The lad is apparently wired in with Zeus and rarely misses.



I did this one a fair number of years ago, maybe 2006 or so on the 25 yard line with CB Shorts in the Contender, purpose being to foul a barrel that had been cleaned to immaculate status. Semi-offhand with an elbow rest and it's about as good as I get.



Pulled this off about the same time, full tilt offhand at 50 yards with a .45 cal flinter. Not a snowball's chance in hell I could do it today.

I daresay any bullet, be it lead or jacketed, starting at -1000fps is going to ricochet unless firmly/softly backstopped. Unless, of course, it is a bullet specifically designed to shatter. I doubt a Linotype alloy will provide that as it also needs speed to generate the energy required for shattering, and even then a lino bullet will shatter its nose off and the back half will keep on traveling. This is something I have observed over decades of cast bullet experimenting, a lot of it with lino alloys (until I discovered the joys of soft alloys).

In general terms I'd agree with you on that, but I was mulling over the idea of a 30'ish grain lino hollow point of the deep cavity variety. Thinking one could top 1300 fps with such a design and while there might be a few chunks left over, most would disintegrate. I've seen this with HV short hollow points with pigs. Where the standard CB short will fully penetrate neck, spine and exit on pigs up to about 100#, the HVHP shorts get to the spine and shatter. Typical residue is comprised of the bullet base of about 12-15 grains and the rest is fragments. MV for those rounds is about 1100 fps and the alloy is much softer than lino, BHN running in the 6-8 range as best I can figure.

The good news is I have a supply of pig cadavers on regular basis for testing. I got more squirrels around here than Tim Leary could have imagined. Don't have any pecan trees, but the oaks and hickory population boggles the mind.

In any case, it is not a near term project on the agenda.....gotta finish this CF thing off good and proper first.

A short summary of this effort would be much appreciated

Are or will the cases be available?

Which bullet mold is working best?

Reloading dies optional?

Is there a plan to bring out some kind of turn key kit when you reach the performance you are hoping for?

2ndwind, your timing if good with your questions. A report on Round 8 and a summary to follow.

Ran 16 rounds of CF per usual, with loads bumped up .1 grain and the odd man out at 1.1 grains. 5 shots for each group except the 1.1 grain load of WW231.
My summary of today's effort: A couple of flyers in the first two groups associated with velocity excursions, otherwise it seemed to do OK. Bullseye obviously went past the point of reasonable performance and I'll drop that off the list of things to use at this level. The salvaged Wolf powder has a message I think, that being that the powder used by the manufacturers might be key to success in the sense of precision. With exception of the odd little flyer it would have rivaled the Norma Tac for both precision and velocity. 4 shots in the 3's.

Numbers are on the target:



So here's where I sit with this. I have demonstrated the functionality of the idea, only some details need to be ironed out. Tools? Laffin' at that idea. I have a shell holder and a "size die" that will provide a mild taper crimp. That's a good news/bad news item in my view. Good that it illustrates the activity is doable with few if any tools IF the brass is used in the same chamber. Bad in the sense that I do not have what is likely needed to explore precision. The cartridge has demonstrated it has sufficient precision and power to handle small game at modest distance, say inside of 50 yards. It has demonstrated the ability to cycle thru a 10/22 without problems, but I've not fired it from that platform. If one has the brass and a little ingenuity here is a functional cartridge for the field, or for plinking. I really, really, wish I had a supply of the powder used in the Wolf ammo.

I need to revisit the mould provided by Steve Brooks. It is perfectly functional for preliminary testing, but the end product would benefit from adding a thou to the drive band diameter and a couple other minor mods. The bullet form was based on bullets from Wolf MT ammo and is faithfully replicated. Knurling with a file works fine, I've yet to experience any leading while using my mixture of SPG Lube and graphite.

My approach has been to test one thing at a time. That and a limited brass supply makes for a modest pace, but continue I shall. In my opinion, when one undertakes something of this sort it is proper to test, to the extent possible, one variable at a time. It is not a fast process.

I have ongoing dialog with two industry players, one of which has invited me to submit a proposal for production. I think the idea will have traction, but the final package(s) that may be marketed as a result are not my call. I favor two styles of tools. One would revolve around the Lyman 310 tool, while the other would incorporate current tooling that is common to hand loading. I suspect there would be a market for swagged lead bullets, bullet moulds, and certainly a style of powder suitable for the pursuit. The powder is out there, just hasn't been packaged for the retail market. I'm also thinking that this pastime would make gang moulds very popular.

For the moment if is not going to be available over the counter. That did not stop me, and does not need to stop anyone else who wishes to jump into the shallow end of the pool. With access to proper machine tools and a little skill, one could most certainly develop match grade ammo with the concept.

It will be a couple weeks before I do another round, family affairs will take priority for a little while.

Dan

Well the good news is that I got 150 pcs of brass finished on the front side yesterday, so next week you should have a larger supply to sample from, the back side goes pretty quick, just face them of and put the primer seat in and , Wa laaa new cases !

Dat's a lot of brass ya got there!

I'm not trying to encroach on DigitalDan here, but I wondered if I could get a .25 ACP case down to .22 lr specs.

So I started playing with that starting point and have worked out a crude process to form .25 ACP brass down, and have one prototype .22lr wildcat case formed. I just need to get the last "die" in the right size. I went too small on my first attempt, I expected more spring back than I got. All of this was done with primitive tools, drill bushings to size down in 6 steps, a homemade punch to push case out of said bushings, a bench vise used as an arbor press, a drill to spin the brass on the punch after the last sizing, and a mini flat file for removing excess brass from the rim and webbing area. The only reloading specific tool used is a small primer pocket uniformer. A LOT of effort for one case, but it can be done. Below are pictures of my efforts, in a google album. Left to Right .25ACP case, my .22lr wildcat case, and a normal .22lr case.

22lr Wildcat album

At this point I'm looking for a gunsmith to do some bolt conversion work for me. I have a spare bolt for my 77/22 All Weather and want to have it converted to centerfire.

I have worked out 2 options on this conversion, both require, probably, plugging the existing rimfire hole in the breech block. I don't have the equipment to plug the breech block, if necessary, and drill the new hole.

First option is to use the existing starting point on the back of the breech block and angle the hole down to the center. This is how, I think, the 77/22 and 77/17 Hornet breech block is setup.

Second option is to drill a centered hole all the way through and modify the striker and firing pin to work centered. This would require a more work, because it would require a spacer/stop and a larger bore for part of the channel so a spring can be placed around the firing pin. This will keep the firing pin from being loose in the channel when it's in the cocked position. This option would also require a breech block pin to be shortened/modified for clearance of the firing pin and spring.

Of the above options I'm leaning towards the first, but the second is doable, just more work.

Does anybody know of a gunsmith that might be willing to take on this project?

Thanks,
Sean

Sean, nice work there and my apologies that you caught the infection too. It is an exercise in tweedle-dee and dum but I am enjoying it. Only have to shoot another 56,000 rounds to use up my pistol powder stash.

I'm running round 9 tomorrow if the weather holds.

Had discussion with Steve Brooks yesterday about fine tuning the mould design and it's in the works....a 3 holer....praise be unto the gods...

DD

Castboolits has a similar project thread some may find interesting

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?356567-Introducing-The-22-ladybug

2ndwind, thanks for the link, it is a fair good read. Glad to find another equally infected with this malicious virus. Have to admit it never would have occurred to me to pursue this by modifying .25 ACP brass. Oh, the tedium.........

Went for round 9 yesterday and it was a bit of a curiosity. Revisited 800X and pushed the envelope with WW231. The latter brought for a couple of vicious cracks that made the squirrels hide.

Numbers are on the target, with the first foulers shot at the 8 o'clock position and proceeding clockwise from there. Group size is circled and I must say that .58" seemed a popular spread.



Couple of comments on the endeavor. I am puzzled a bit by the Norma TAC deciding to not one hole it before or after, but hey, stuff happens. Seems the ~50 fps/.1 grain of charge change is a relatively predictable metric. There is some minor deviation, but not enough to get fired up about.

One of the side effects of a suppressor as best I can determine, is that it magnifies variations within the interior ballistics world, and perhaps this comes from a change in barrel harmonics. Just speculating on that, but if you'll note the 1.1 charge of WW231 target at 2 o'clock you will see three in one hole and two outliers, one in the 25 ring. Those two shots were first and last in the string, both supersonic. Likewise for the 1.0 grain charge of 800X at 10 0'clock. Two groups adjacent and perfectly correlated to the velocities. Two on the right are from the "800s" and those on the left from the "700's". 'Tis a puzzle I doubt I'll be able to sort out, though the hint is that if I can get the velocity spreads under control I might put this to rest. Finding it amusing that a significant velocity change generates a shift in group placement as well. See the 800X target in comparison to the others. This has been going on from day one.

On the latter point, and I think properly illustrated by the previous round, powder appropriate to the task is necessary if anything close to match grade accuracy is the goal. I've had fairly consistent results with a variety of powders, but none did quite so well as that salvaged from the Wolf MT rounds when this project started. I think the WW231 has done as well as any of the others, better than most. I will dabble with a few others perhaps and most certainly bump up the charge of 800X because it seems to offer some potential AND there is room remaining in the case. The 1.1 grain solo round was ballpark 90% load density and I suspect potential for up to 1.3 grains before compression begins to occur.

Tools......yeah, I need to start working on that. I mentioned earlier that this has been and exercise in innovation if you recall. Couple of things are engraved in stone at this point. Shoot from a single gun and don't hold your expectation terribly high for precision and you don't need tools. Period. Having gone thru 9 load cycles at this point w/o case sizing makes the point in my opinion. I knurl with a file, wipe some lube on that and have yet to experience any leading whatsoever. "Crimping" with a tapered size die provided by a friend is not precise by any measure, but seems to have a somewhat positive effect. Notably, the bullets will not fall out when handling for transport and loading. My point is for purposes of simply plinking, training or pursuit of small game at modest ranges, tools are not really required. Hammers and a punch seat primers just fine. A shell holder is convenient, but not required for decapping.

So here I sit and being occasionally beset by a desire to conquer minutiae I'm going to do the following. 1) modify specs very slightly on the bullet mould and 2) have Hornady make a set of dies for purposes of illustrating that conventional loading methods enable use in multiple guns (chambers), facilitate precision and, uh, just because. Following discussion with Steve Brooks I anticipate a 3 cavity mould (Thanks to the Gods), and based on experience with Hornady's custom dies will be making one hole groups. :Dr

I will dabble with this somewhat while awaiting such things, little more powder here, different primer brand there, but in the main this project will rest until those things arrive.

And yeah, I'm going to have a CF bolt made for one of my repeaters. God help me.........

Dan

I've been giving this centerfire bolt some thoughts, it might be easier than first thought. I'm going looking for a donor this week.

Hey Dan did you make a powder funnel yet ?

Got that covered Jim, thanks. Been away for a spell, sorry for the slow response.

Also am a bit pleased to announce the .22 GTC has been blooded. The surviving squirrels are having a protest as I type. From all appearances the cartridge has a propensity to over-penetrate. While the bullets were subsonic and not hollow pointed I note that placement within a half inch or so of the ear pretty much carries the day. Every time. High shoulder shots work also.

DD


PS: Some time ago it was suggested by a rep. from Hornady that I submit a proposal for production of this marvelous thing and pass along that it was forwarded last week. All 5 pages or so. Will pass along any feedback that results.

Good deal and keep up the good work.