I told him they should focus on mechanical tracking. Frankly there are tons of other optics out there that IMO make a lot more sense to buy than a tract. However our options are limited on scopes that track mechanically. I think they should make this their trait rather than glass or anything else. put up some videos of the scopes being tested mechanically. Provide a guarantee the optic will function mechanically. basically sell us this over just another scope in a highly competitive market.
That makes a lot of sense. Just curious, how did he respond?
I think he was listening. He also told me many times optics companies use 1" internals in 30 and even 34 mm scope and market them as HD offerings when in reality they are nothing more than a larger tube with the same guts in it as a 1" tube. He didn't mention any makes but I personally feel Burris does this all the time, honestly I don't think he would be surprised at what formadillo found in their cheap line of scopes. I didn't mention the formadillo results as I didn't want to upset him or seem like I was trying to cause a problem. Rather I just wanted to talk to him about the business.
will they actually change to what I think many of us would like to see? I have my doubts. These guys all come from the main line optics industry. I think he was a former nikon guy. They tend to want to do the same thing they did at the company they worked for I would assume. Nikon I hasn't shown they really care about tracking. nightforce on the other hand has videos of them banging and testing the scopes. The fact is people are doing way more with optics these days than they did in the past. its surprising how few companies are out there that really cater to mechanical reliability. They get away with it because honestly your average guy doesn't shoot much. The scopes that break probably cost 1/4 to 1/5th what they retail for. So they just batch QC those scopes and send out a replacement. Heck even vortex with the PST 2. of all the companies out there that aught to know better. I test 2 off the shelf examples and both had right reticle shift with elevation travel. Yet your average guy will never figure that out.
what I think should happen is an optics company has their scope built solely by LOW in japan. Then they offer a DVD with each scope that shows that scope being QC tested in the lab, probably locally here in the US. Show the serial number of the optic. then show the turrets functioning in a culminator, show the scope being shock tested like nightforce does. Show the scope returning to zero. Do all the tests a company like nightforce does. BUT PROVIDE A VIDEO DVD OF THAT SCOPE BEING TESTED!!! add $100 to the cost of every optic to video the test and conduct it. that is how a company like tract rises from obscurity. imagine a video DVD in the box with the scope showing all the testing done to that particular scope. no one is doing that. I bet something like that would get all our attention around here. oh yeah and put a signed sticker on the objective bell by the person that tested it, just like nightforce does.
A DVD of someone beating the [bleep] out of the scope you just paid good money for? You want a video of somebody redlining the piss out of the next truck you buy too? A video of somebody banging the chick you just married? WTF.....
I fail to see why the same review that I think isn't fair is always brought up. I'm trying to find the location of that optic and I want to retest it myself. No other company would reveal their engineering or testing methods. I myself have never heard or seen Nightforce , Vortex or Leupold answer this. Again if you don't like or plan on purchasing a Tract I feel your only hear to stir the pot. You may not like me or Tract and thats fine. Bring up valid points and we can talk.
I think this is an excellent summary. The hunters that use Tract Torics are pleased with them and rely on them. The negative comments come from those who are not using them and would not use them. I don't see the need for another test to military conditions of a hunting scope. Please spare me a discussion of random vibrations or impact loads.
As far as the need for unbiased independent testing, in my world of defense electronics the production engineers certainly regard the quality control tests as unbiased and independent. No production facility can consistently turn out quality product if the quality tests are not unbiased and independent. The production facility in Japan that builds scopes for Tract and others has an excellent reputation for quality which they could not do without quality control and quality testing.
The scope reviewed and tested by Formidilous was a Tract “Response” not a Tract “Toric”.
His testing could hardly be described as represented military conditions.
The Tract Response was built at a factory in the Philippines.
I think everyone knows the test was on the Response and that it was built in the Philippines although the test on the Response is used to denigrate the Toric, which wasn't tested and was built in Japan. (I explicitly stated this in an earlier post.) I have no need for a similar test on the Toric. I understood that Formidilous's testing methodology was for military purposes from his replies to me a couple of years ago. If I misunderstood his comments which included his photographs, I apologize.
Form never “dropped” this scope.... hell, it barely made it to the tracking phase. If you go back and look, the scope wouldn’t even stay sighted in, and caused group size to double.
Top that off with Trevor’s BS about all the scopes being held to the same standard...and you can see when/why/how Tract went off the rails here on the fire.
This test wasn’t “military” style.... it wasn’t even “hunting abuse”. The scope flat out wouldn’t work under the most simple and mundane of all practices.... bench shooting groups. It didn’t hold zero, it didn’t return to zero, and it didn't track. End of story.
Why the hell would anyone ponytail up $40 on a Toric for Form to test. Tract oughta be sending him the best that they got, then thanking him afterwards. If it passes Form’s gauntlet, they’ll sell a few here..... if not, you can tell us we were right, and go back to the drawing board.
I simply said that I see no need for another test of a hunting scope to military standards and I don't. I really don't care what Trevor said, I waited to see what Mule Deer and others said about the Toric. The Toric has more than passed the simple tracking tests you discuss in the hands of other reviewers and is well regarded by the hunters who use them in conditions harder than I will use them, as they dial the elevation adjustments and I set and forget. I would not spend the money to send a Toric to be tested. I would buy it to use myself and did-twice. It joins my Meopta MeoPro 6x42's which are doing fine in my use despite also being described as not reliable. Form's extended testing is simply not relevant to my needs, as much as it meets your requirements. It yields recommendations of scopes with features I don't need, some of which I can't use because they lack features I need. After all, my SS 10x42 is in a landfill somewhere in Pennsylvania. Tract has sold a few more Torics here and will sell more in spite of all the hate.
A DVD of someone beating the [bleep] out of the scope you just paid good money for? You want a video of somebody redlining the piss out of the next truck you buy too? A video of somebody banging the chick you just married? WTF.....
How about a video of her sister.
Originally Posted by 16penny
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
So far there’s an United Colors of Benetton storefront at a post apocalyptic strip mall, 10,000 cubic yards of whipped cream, a hot air ballon with a confetti cannon and three clowns, but two of them are mannequins.
More later my crayon sharpener broke.
Originally Posted by 16penny
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
A DVD of someone beating the [bleep] out of the scope you just paid good money for? You want a video of somebody redlining the piss out of the next truck you buy too? A video of somebody banging the chick you just married? WTF.....
um hell yes, nightforce does just that with every scope, watch and learn
So far there’s an United Colors of Benetton storefront at a post apocalyptic strip mall, 10,000 cubic yards of whipped cream, a hot air ballon with a confetti cannon and three clowns, but two of them are mannequins.
More later my crayon sharpener broke.
Switch it to a Lane Bryant, double the whip cream, make the confetti cannon a pinata full of candy and the clowns chocolate Easter bunnies and you're getting close. Might add in a pallet jack and some aircraft cable....
um hell yes, nightforce does just that with every scope, watch and learn
Yep, the "Legendary Impact Testing" at Nightforce. Is it scientific and repeatable? Nope. But it probably helps weed out problem scopes. And I don't think it has been secret or proprietary info.
NF is the gold standard in optics I own several. They are tanks and worth every penny. Hard to compare NF to a $400 Tract. My gripe with the Response test was that one scope had NF rings and the Response had a Warne mount. I agree it shouldn't have failed but I never saw the mount or optic in question. I myself have never been a fan of Warne products. I've seen my share of issues with them. I'm a huge fan of AADMOUNT. I have that on my JP Rifles AR15. I feel the scope should have been sent back to the factory and been diagnosed. Maybe a bad unit got out there.
NRA LIfe Member, Colt, Sig, Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armorer, NYBIN , NYPD Firearms Examiner, Serial Number Restoration, Cerakote, Gunkote, and Duracoat finishes
$750 bucks or so is a good price for a 3-15 x 50 rifle scope. I have been tempted more than once. Let's say I idiotically finagle myself into another 300WSM which I have no need for, and want to put a rifle scope on it. I don't know this new rifle, so I buy talley LW mounts which have worked for me in the past, and now the scope, which scope would I buy that would have the higher chance of being correct so that if the rifle was not shooting it would not cost me a small fortune in bullets and powder along with a scope swap to figure it out? Leupold? Vortex? Meopta? Tract? Nightforce?
What Tract did by cutting out the middle man keeps the cost down. I remember my first NF NXS 8-32x was $1150 back in the day. Optic prices have soared over the last few years. I think about what some brands cost and I think they are insane. For a little more money I'll just get a S&B. I just purchased a Vortex AMG though their LE program. Even with a discount they bumped up their MSRP so much its barely worth it. I wanted to keep the weight down on my Vudoo Rifles V22 thats on the way.
NRA LIfe Member, Colt, Sig, Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armorer, NYBIN , NYPD Firearms Examiner, Serial Number Restoration, Cerakote, Gunkote, and Duracoat finishes
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