Coming from a Jewish Rabi of some influence, I'll summarize it.:
It is not to say that the story told through Moses is factually true, the Torah is not a history book. It is to say that the words are as given by God to Moses. Are they actually true, partly true, based on historical facts, is the question. Or are they given to convey a message of faith and guidance, much the same as a Christian would view a parable of Jesus? The Torah is not a history book, it is a book of theology and faith.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
I think those folks are all fools, one side for actually believing the Ark myth and the other for wasting time protesting. As for the state helping finance it, it looks like they'll get a good return on their investment.
As for trying to refute the Ark story with science, I have learned that there is no point in trying to do so, or trying to refute science with religion.
Those who believe the Ark story was meant to be taken as a literal event in history that encompassed the entire planet are those who have zero interest in, or (alternatively) ability to learn, the fundamentals of the life sciences.
The OT is written in different, original Hebrew language genres — poetry, prophecy, and history to name three. The best Hebrew scholars (ie, James Barr, Oxford) have determined that Genesis is written in the historical genre; in other words, real history, real people, real occurrences.
So you, in your wisdom have decided that this history is not literal. By what standard? What else do you believe is not literal? The virgin birth? Christ as God incarnate? The resurrection? The ascension? Why bother?
The fundamentals of life science? The fundamentals? — that is actually pretty funny.
- Why did God include roaches and mosquitoes on it? - Why didn't he include a couple of dinosaur species? - How did Noah handle the cobras and black mambas? - Did he include pairs of homosexuals, lesbians and transgenders? - etc.
Coming from a Jewish Rabi of some influence, I'll summarize it.:
It is not to say that the story told through Moses is factually true, the Torah is not a history book. It is to say that the words are as given by God to Moses. Are they actually true, partly true, based on historical facts, is the question. Or are they given to convey a message of faith and guidance, much the same as a Christian would view a parable of Jesus? The Torah is not a history book, it is a book of theology and faith.
You need your own YouTube channel.
Originally Posted by 16penny
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
Entire mammoths have been unearthed with food still undigested in their stomachs. Look at the Grand Canyon, it was a flood, not over millions of years. Look at where the coal and oil deposits are. Flooding placed them there. It says in the Bible, that there were no seasons before the flood. The seasons started afterward. Probably a giant asteroid hit the earth hard enough to cause it to wobble on its axis causing the seasons, and massive flooding and climate change, like tsunamis, and rain. It also says the animals were herbivores, not carnivores, before the flood. Panda bears eat bamboo, even though they are capable of digesting meat. Massive deposits of fossil animals have been found world wide indicating massive flooding. Every civilization from India, China, Middle East, Egypt, all tell of massive flooding stories.
You should not try to prove matters of faith using science, especially if you don't understand the science. For instance:
"There are scientific proofs of massive flooding all over the world." No there aren't. There are instances of localized flooding.
"Mammoths." These have been reliably dated long before any possible date for Noah's flood.
"Look at the Grand Canyon, it was a flood, not over millions of years. Look at where the coal and oil deposits are." No reputable geologist would agree with you on this.
Probably a giant asteroid hit the earth hard enough to cause it to wobble on its axis causing the seasons..." If that happened (which it did, we think, about 4 billion years ago) the impact would melt the earth into molten lava, taking millions of years to cool.
"...the animals were herbivores, not carnivores, before the flood." Hardly. Lions etc. cannot digest vegetable food. Their teeth are wrong and their intestines are too short.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
Entire mammoths have been unearthed with food still undigested in their stomachs. Look at the Grand Canyon, it was a flood, not over millions of years. Look at where the coal and oil deposits are. Flooding placed them there. It says in the Bible, that there were no seasons before the flood. The seasons started afterward. Probably a giant asteroid hit the earth hard enough to cause it to wobble on its axis causing the seasons, and massive flooding and climate change, like tsunamis, and rain. It also says the animals were herbivores, not carnivores, before the flood. Panda bears eat bamboo, even though they are capable of digesting meat. Massive deposits of fossil animals have been found world wide indicating massive flooding. Every civilization from India, China, Middle East, Egypt, all tell of massive flooding stories.
You should not try to prove matters of faith using science, especially if you don't understand the science. For instance:
"There are scientific proofs of massive flooding all over the world." No there aren't. There are instances of localized flooding.
"Mammoths." These have been reliably dated long before any possible date for Noah's flood.
"Look at the Grand Canyon, it was a flood, not over millions of years. Look at where the coal and oil deposits are." No reputable geologist would agree with you on this.
Probably a giant asteroid hit the earth hard enough to cause it to wobble on its axis causing the seasons..." If that happened (which it did, we think, about 4 billion years ago) the impact would melt the earth into molten lava, taking millions of years to cool.
"...the animals were herbivores, not carnivores, before the flood." Hardly. Lions etc. cannot digest vegetable food. Their teeth are wrong and their intestines are too short.
Well, science and faith do not exactly contradict each other. The fact is that there are great flood stories from around the world. Look at Genesis 7:11- In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.
Well, lets look at what some scientist believe may have happened around 2800-3000 BCE. That would be the Burckle Crater in the deep Indian Ocean. Note the location of that crater:
This I take from my memory of a paper I read some years ago, and it seems plausible to me:
When something like that hits several things happen. One being a massive tidal wave thousands of feet high. Also would be an incredible amount of ejected sea water in the form of mostly super heated steam. That ejected sea water would condense and come down like rain.
But more than that. We know from deep water nuclear testing that the water pulsates until the energy is dissipated. It ends because there is no more energy being added to the reaction. But in this case the floor of the ocean, and some of the material closer to the core, would be super heated. Now when the water returns it super heats and the reaction is driven. It still runs until the energy is dissipated but that takes a much longer time than a comparative firecracker that would be a nuclear warhead.
Now note that the Middle East is directly inline with that impact, and is not very high above sea level. Now the question becomes the statement of "The entire world". Does it mean the entire planet OR the world known to the people in that region. Just like the animals, does it mean all the animals on the planet or just the animals of that region?
Note that the torah is about the Jewish people and their fore-bearers. While it applies to all men and teaches all men, it is specifically aimed at that group.
On another topic, I firmly believe that Genesis 2 is not a repeat or expansion on Genesis 1. How much time passed between the two is an unknown.
Last edited by Armednfree; 07/12/18.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
The vast amount of unrecognized presupposition illustrated here is again almost unbelievable. To begin with, the billions of years old earth is based on philosophical science (not empirically proven) begun primarily in the early 19th century in Europe, accepted, and built on by Darwin with his ORIGINS mid-century. And now taught worldwide, formally, for decades as hard, settled science.
But wait you say, radio isotope dating proves it all. Not quite. Carbon-14 dating? Not necessarily. As to the former, determining the time for “daughter material” to decay from “mother material” is based on a presently known rate of decay (hard science), there are multiple presuppositions used to interpret the answer in years; for one, that the rate of decay has always been the same — uniformitarianism. It might have varied greatly. Greatly.
The earth could be relatively young. There might have been a supercontinent (one land mass) broken up by a world-wide flood followed by an ice age that that resulted in dinosaurs and other mammals becoming extinct. This flood might have resulted in many extinct animals being found as if they had been buried fast and violently. Exihibit A: wooly mammoths intact with food still in there mouths and still intact DNA.
As to the ark holding all of these creatures (dinosaurs) — they needn’t have been adults but rather the very young.
And on and on. A lot of pseudo-science snake oil has been given and swallowed.
Edited to add some references: see works by Jonathon Sarfati PhD and Henry Morris PhD (particularly, the GENESIS FLOOD). And there are many others.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by IndyCA35
I think those folks are all fools, one side for actually believing the Ark myth and the other for wasting time protesting. As for the state helping finance it, it looks like they'll get a good return on their investment.
As for trying to refute the Ark story with science, I have learned that there is no point in trying to do so, or trying to refute science with religion.
Those who believe the Ark story was meant to be taken as a literal event in history that encompassed the entire planet are those who have zero interest in, or (alternatively) ability to learn, the fundamentals of the life sciences.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 07/12/18.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
How long was a God day or year? And who can confirm that based on what? Since none of us was around back then during those 6 days he got busy making stuff.
Cool ship... Tidal wave connection with it somehow I geuss just don't jive based on construction time versus impact.
Unless Noah got some inside info on stuff fixing to go down....
Still puzzled about the tick and chigger and biting or stinging insect thing I know it is the birds eat em explanation.
Need to see a 6000 yr old earth calendar with picture pages timeline. Get a kick outta those.
I think the big guy in the sky might be ticked off at man's interpretation of him at times also.
Entire mammoths have been unearthed with food still undigested in their stomachs. Look at the Grand Canyon, it was a flood, not over millions of years. Look at where the coal and oil deposits are. Flooding placed them there. It says in the Bible, that there were no seasons before the flood. The seasons started afterward. Probably a giant asteroid hit the earth hard enough to cause it to wobble on its axis causing the seasons, and massive flooding and climate change, like tsunamis, and rain. It also says the animals were herbivores, not carnivores, before the flood. Panda bears eat bamboo, even though they are capable of digesting meat. Massive deposits of fossil animals have been found world wide indicating massive flooding. Every civilization from India, China, Middle East, Egypt, all tell of massive flooding stories.
You should not try to prove matters of faith using science, especially if you don't understand the science. For instance:
"There are scientific proofs of massive flooding all over the world." No there aren't. There are instances of localized flooding.
"Mammoths." These have been reliably dated long before any possible date for Noah's flood.
"Look at the Grand Canyon, it was a flood, not over millions of years. Look at where the coal and oil deposits are." No reputable geologist would agree with you on this.
Probably a giant asteroid hit the earth hard enough to cause it to wobble on its axis causing the seasons..." If that happened (which it did, we think, about 4 billion years ago) the impact would melt the earth into molten lava, taking millions of years to cool.
"...the animals were herbivores, not carnivores, before the flood." Hardly. Lions etc. cannot digest vegetable food. Their teeth are wrong and their intestines are too short.
Well, science and faith do not exactly contradict each other. The fact is that there are great flood stories from around the world. Look at Genesis 7:11- In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.
Well, lets look at what some scientist believe may have happened around 2800-3000 BCE. That would be the Burckle Crater in the deep Indian Ocean. Note the location of that crater:
This I take from my memory of a paper I read some years ago, and it seems plausible to me:
When something like that hits several things happen. One being a massive tidal wave thousands of feet high. Also would be an incredible amount of ejected sea water in the form of mostly super heated steam. That ejected sea water would condense and come down like rain.
But more than that. We know from deep water nuclear testing that the water pulsates until the energy is dissipated. It ends because there is no more energy being added to the reaction. But in this case the floor of the ocean, and some of the material closer to the core, would be super heated. Now when the water returns it super heats and the reaction is driven. It still runs until the energy is dissipated but that takes a much longer time than a comparative firecracker that would be a nuclear warhead.
Now note that the Middle East is directly inline with that impact, and is not very high above sea level. Now the question becomes the statement of "The entire world". Does it mean the entire planet OR the world known to the people in that region. Just like the animals, does it mean all the animals on the planet or just the animals of that region?
Note that the torah is about the Jewish people and their fore-bearers. While it applies to all men and teaches all men, it is specifically aimed at that group.
On another topic, I firmly believe that Genesis 2 is not a repeat or expansion on Genesis 1. How much time passed between the two is an unknown.
You seem to forget.
According to the Bible narrative EVERYONE in the world except Noah and his family DIED, so there would be no one else anywhere else in the world to record stories of the same alleged world wide flood.
Genesis 6:17 Behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life ... Every thing that is in the earth shall die.
7:14: and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
&:20 and the mountains were covered.
7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Water covered the highest mountain. Rained for 40 days and 40 nights,
Real nice guy, your God....murdering EVERYONE.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 07/12/18.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
There is no evidence for any so-called Burckle Crater. The only "evidence" is sand dunes in Australia and Madagascar, said to be caused by tsunamis. More recent computer simulations point to the dunes being created by wind erosion.
If there had been such an impact in the Indian Ocean, it would not have caused a world side flood.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
Scripture repeatedly tells man to have a sound mind. ..sound rational minds are rather valuable and useful in dealing with deception and debunking myths.
God regards you as mere sheep, but still hopes they use their minds so as not to allow others to 'pull the wool' over them..
being spiritual doesn't entitrely require faith without also having logic and reason, in fact it is an integral/essential component.
2 Timothy 1:7 'For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind'.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
It didn't need to hold a course. There was nowhere to go and no propulsion was needed to go nowhere. It only needed to stay afloat for a year.
how did you arrive at the figure of one year afloat.?
The beginning of the rain/flood was in the second month (Genesis 7:11) and still took some time before the waters were high enough to actually float the ark. Genesis 7:17( KJV) "And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth".
re: actual time AFLOAT...
Genesis 8: (KJV) 3 "And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. 4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat."
Genesis 8: NLT 3 "So the floodwaters gradually receded from the earth. After 150 days, 4 exactly five months from the time the flood began, the boat came to rest on the mountains of Ararat."
*** note: the Ark became grounded 5 months from when the flood/rains actually began, not from when the Ark was first floated.
early low level flash flooding likely occurred before rising waters reached the Ark.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
Keep reading. It's true that they got grounded after 5 months. However, the rain started when Noah was 600 and 2 months. They left the ark when he was 601 and 1 month. While they were grounded in the 5th month, the 1st land appeared in the 10th month and it was at least another month after that before they could get out.
Even though they were grounded after 5 months, the ark was partially afloat for months longer.
Last edited by Rock Chuck; 07/13/18.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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