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OP
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about straight cartridges vs straightened cartridges. When reloading rifle cartridges, I try to get the most concentricity I can with what I have in the way of equipment. When re-sizing, I make sure my die is squared up with the shell holder. I remove the decapper/expander stem from the die then replace it loosely after re-sizing and expand the neck on a downstroke so as to not disturb the neck alignment. I measure neck thickness on each piece of brass for uniformity. When seating the bullet, I am careful to keep it as straight as possible. My goal is to keep concentricity within .002 or less on each cartridge, yet on about one out of four that I run thru my concentricity gauge exceeds that amount up to .006/.008. I use the Tru-tool or the Hornady gauge itself to straighten those that are out of spec. My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? Should I cull out the “straightened” cartridges for plinking use? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. Sometimes “yes” and sometimes “no”. What say you?
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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Joined: Dec 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. What say you? You just answered your own question.....further.....you didn't ask.....unless you have a benchrest quality rifle, the entire process you mentioned is a waste of time.
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Tracker
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If you concentricity is down to .0006"/.0008" you wont be able to measure any additional accuracy by correcting the rounds let alone between corrected and uncorrected. Is there any chance you meant .006"/.008"?
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Joined: Aug 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
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If you concentricity is down to .0006"/.0008" you wont be able to measure any additional accuracy by correcting the rounds let alone between corrected and uncorrected. Is there any chance you meant .006"/.008"? My bad! Yes, I meant .006/.008. I’ll fix the post.
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
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My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. What say you? You just answered your own question..... further.....you didn't ask.....unless you have a benchrest quality rifle, the entire process you mentioned is a waste of time. I disagree. I load for several different sporters that very well show the difference between .008" and .002" runout cartridges.
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
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Yeah, even with full-length sized handloads, or factory ammo, with an accurate sporter there's normally a big difference in accuracy between .002" and .008" runout, and often even between .002" and .005".
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You'll see more improvement in your groups getting runout down from .008" to .002" than you will doing things like weighing charges to the nearest tenth of a gnat's ass.
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Campfire Tracker
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You'll see more improvement in your groups getting runout down from .008" to .002" than you will doing things like weighing charges to the nearest tenth of a gnat's ass. Yup. FWIW, I'm a innanet nobody, kind of a hunter, not a shooter, and definitely not a gun writer. Still, even I can see a difference in groups with .003 runout and above. Also, in my experience, naturally straight, vs. straightened with a Tru-Angle tool, makes no difference. The F-class guys might have different answers, but those are mine. Good Luck, FC
"Every day is a holiday, and every meal is a banquet."
- Mrs. FC
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,828
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,828 |
You'll see more improvement in your groups getting runout down from .008" to .002" than you will doing things like weighing charges to the nearest tenth of a gnat's ass. Yup. FWIW, I'm a innanet nobody, kind of a hunter, not a shooter, and definitely not a gun writer. Still, even I can see a difference in groups with .003 runout and above. Also, in my experience, naturally straight, vs. straightened with a Tru-Angle tool, makes no difference.The F-class guys might have different answers, but those are mine. Good Luck, FC In my experience that depends on how much straightening had to be done.
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Joined: Apr 2001
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2001
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about straight cartridges vs straightened cartridges. When reloading rifle cartridges, I try to get the most concentricity I can with what I have in the way of equipment. When re-sizing, I make sure my die is squared up with the shell holder. I remove the decamper/expander stem from the die then replace it loosely after re-sizing and expand the neck on a downstroke so as to not disturb the neck alignment. I measure neck thickness on each piece of brass for uniformity. When seating the bullet, I am careful to keep it as straight as possible. My goal is to keep concentricity within .0002 or less on each cartridge, yet on about one out of four that I run thru my concentricity gauge exceeds that amount up to .006/.008. I use the Tru-tool or the Hornady gauge itself to straighten those that are out of spec. My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? Should I cull out the “straightened” cartridges for plinking use? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. Sometimes “yes” and sometimes “no”. What say you? I think what you need to do is examine how you are setting up your die. I am confused, or perhaps fail to understand why 1 out of every 4 seems to be excessive. If the die is set up correctly, and everything is tight, then all the cartridges should be fine, unless you have a bad die. But heck, even If the die was the problem, then run out would be excessive for most if not all of them. Don't mess with the decapper. Install it tightly, the way the manufacturer describes. Wobbly parts introduce inconsistencies. I would start from scratch and set up the die according to the manufacturer's recommendation. Don't overthink the method. The last thing, "My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer." suggests to me that you must start back at the beginning. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are trying to do too much. Don't attempt to load cartridges using any method other than what is in the manufacturer's instructions. The KISS principle is the way to go here. Ignore anything that you've read WRT die set up and stick with the basics.
Safe Shooting! Steve Redgwell www.303british.comGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain Member - Professional Outdoor Media Association of Canada ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/AP39Jhm.jpg)
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Joined: Dec 2010
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2010
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My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. What say you? You just answered your own question..... further.....you didn't ask.....unless you have a benchrest quality rifle, the entire process you mentioned is a waste of time. I disagree. I load for several different sporters that very well show the difference between .008" and .002" runout cartridges. If his ability can't discern a difference it's still a waste of time.
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,639
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
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My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. What say you? You just answered your own question..... further.....you didn't ask.....unless you have a benchrest quality rifle, the entire process you mentioned is a waste of time. I disagree. I load for several different sporters that very well show the difference between .008" and .002" runout cartridges. If his ability can't discern a difference it's still a waste of time. precisely.....
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,960
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,960 |
You'll see more improvement in your groups getting runout down from .008" to .002" than you will doing things like weighing charges to the nearest tenth of a gnat's ass. And the quickest and easiest way to accomplish this is to use quality dies. Perhaps not the cheapest, but still the best. Since I've started using Forster dies I can almost throw away my concentrically gauge.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,133
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,133 |
My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? Should I cull out the “straightened” cartridges for plinking use? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. Sometimes “yes” and sometimes “no”. What say you? I shoot 600/1000 yard Benchrest, and I check/straighten every round, down to a half a thou or less runout. All are "record" rounds. Last match I won both Light Gun and Heavy Gun group aggs.........
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Joined: Aug 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
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I definitely can tell the difference in groups fired with cartridges that have run-out that varies by .002/.008. My question was “do straightened rounds shoot on a par with rounds that are concentric to begin with”.
FC,
Your’s is the answer I was looking for and hope is true since it seems that I have to straighten several out of a box of fifty. Thanks.
Mule Deer,
It is your fault (along with Mathman) that I question such things as run-out. I read your books! For years I just took whatever came out of the bullet seating die and wondered about those fliers......
Steve,
To clarify, I don’t remove primers with the sizing die but instead use a universal decapper for that purpose. The reason I leave the expander stem loose is that I re-size without it in the die, then in an added step I re-install the stem and expand the necks on the upstroke of the case. I leave it loose thinking it will self-center as it goes into the case.
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,518
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,518 |
My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? Should I cull out the “straightened” cartridges for plinking use? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. Sometimes “yes” and sometimes “no”. What say you? I shoot 600/1000 yard Benchrest, and I check/straighten every round, down to a half a thou or less runout. All are "record" rounds. Last match I won both Light Gun and Heavy Gun group aggs......... Thanks aalf, That pretty much answers my question.
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401 |
If his ability can't discern a difference it's still a waste of time.
I’ve seen Doug shoot. He doesn’t lack ability...
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
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Joined: May 2014
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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the quickest and easiest way to accomplish this is to use quality dies. Perhaps not the cheapest, but still the best. Since I've started using Forster dies I can almost throw away my concentrically gauge. Since I haven’t shot for competition since 1985, I don’t often worry much about deer loads because I like to get close. But coyote and PD shooting... Forester as good as other dies in the +$100 range?
I prefer classic.
Semper Fi
I used to run with the hare. Now I'm envious of the tortoise and I do my own stunts but rarely intentionally
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
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If his ability can't discern a difference it's still a waste of time.
I’ve seen Doug shoot. He doesn’t lack ability... Thanks Marty, I think Blackheart misunderstood my original post, or at least my question. I referred to not being able to tell the difference between groups shot with “straightened” ammunition compared to ammunition that comes out of the seating die “straight”. I never said that I couldn’t tell the difference between ammo with a run-out variation between .002 and .008.
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,133
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,133 |
My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? Should I cull out the “straightened” cartridges for plinking use? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. Sometimes “yes” and sometimes “no”. What say you? I shoot 600/1000 yard Benchrest, and I check/straighten every round, down to a half a thou or less runout. All are "record" rounds. Last match I won both Light Gun and Heavy Gun group aggs......... Thanks aalf, that pretty much answers my question.
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