Home Forums Birds & Dogs Shotguns Experiences with early Model 12 choke patterns ?

I realize each shotgun has it's "favorite" shot size sometimes and patterning it will tell the tale, but I'd like to hear any experiences anyone has had patterning EARLY Winchester Model 12 shotguns.

Buying it regardless but when picking up a 700 BDL today I spied a SWEET Winchester model 12 sitting on the "for sale' rack. Picking it up I saw it was a 16ga (that phases me none at all for my sporadic use) in 28 inch "FULL". Bluing was impeccable. Stock, 90 percent.
Neither the dealer, a couple other shotgun loonys or I thought it looked like it was reblued, but if it was.......someone did a bang up job.
Serial number put it in 1922-23........(I forgot already) lol.

I know a guy that has it's twin from another year left to him from his Dad's passing. Both he and his Dad regularly took deer with theirs shooting slugs (always made me flinch thinking of that) and it's mainly used for a closer range turkey gun these days but the age of the shotgun in question and the timing of the invent of plastic shot cups has me wondering how tight this is going to pattern for scattergun use on passing doves and an occasional duck (with bismuth shot, LOL) .

A fine old shotgun regardless made 29 years before I sucked in my first gulp of air so it's rather a moot point. Plus I "bought it right". but my curiosity is bugging me.

Any insight on the patterns these old girls throw with modern shot-shells?

God Bless

Tight.

Pretty much what I'm expecting. Thought I'd ask around anyway.
Thanks!

As long as it hasn't been opened-up by someone. Wouldn't be the first time that has happened.

Look at the barrel lettering. Is it marked 2 3/4" shells? If not it may have a 2 9/16" chamber.

Too tight. If it is a 2 3/4" gun it should be marked that in the chamber area. If that is the case hit your local gunshows and look hard for early too mid 60's Federals and WW shot shells that don't have plastic wads . The old nitro card and fiber wad combo's won't give you as tight a pattern as plastic wad loads. So use the oldies for the 1 st shot and follow with tighter patterning shells. Works good ,I've been doing this for years. MB

1927 is when Winchester started to make 16ga M12 guns in 2-3/4" Somewhere in 95 years someone might have lengthened the chamber, you'll have to find out for sure.

I texted the dealer having him check. I had totally forgotten those early short chambers. RST makes 2.5 inch shells but OUCH. lol

Many thanks to all replying
God Bless

No chamber length markings that he can find. I'd assume it's short unless changed. We can measure when I go back..........and rehaggle HAHA

Thanks to all.
Neat old gun. Not a deal breaker for no more than we have to scattergun hunt for here anymore.

God bless
Steve

I'v seen full choke 16 ga M12s take pheasants down at 70 plus yards consistently with Remington Express No. 4s. I've also seen the same combo tear birds apart at 40. They shoot tight.

I will echo what others have said. The early M12 and into the 50-60's shoot tight. I have a M12 16ga made in the 40's with full choke. It shoots extremely tight.

I suspect that most brands shoot tighter than marked unless they were made after plastic shot cups became the norm. In the early mid seventies, I bought spreader loads for my A-5 factory choked as modified. Those worked pretty good on quail. After spreaders were not normally stocked, I did what a lot of others did; POlyChoke. Regretted that almost instantly.

I do have a Model 12 with a Cutts and an improved cylinder tube. IIRC, it dates to 1947.

Jack

Thanks to all for the replies.

I'll have to take a good look at the chamber and maybe see if someone there (sporting clays range) has a choke mic and see if it's all original or been worked on.

My intuition is that it may not be altered and why the condition is so high for it's age. It came from a Winchester collector that passed away and the family dumped off his small collection and told the shop owner to "get what you can".

Personally, even though it will make it a special ammo only shooter, I'm hoping it is. RST makes some fiber wad 1oz and spreader 7/8 oz loads also in the 2.5 inch shells....... along with the regular 1 ounce "lite" they make.

Expensive but, to another old shooter, this old shooter should be used.............at least some. I'll just feel much worse when I miss.

Sometimes, and the older I get the more it seems to be turning that direction, it's not about "what's easiest" that makes me smile.

God Bless one and all for the help. Turkey gun...........and should be a good pass shooter on ducks (if I don't die from shock buying a box of their bismuth shot rounds!! )

http://www.rstshells.com/store/p/174-16-Ga-2-1/2-Bismuth-Vel-1200-7/8-oz-Box.aspx

good attitude. the shells are expensive , but you won't care after a good day afield with that old iron.

It’s not only the old shotguns that are choked tight. I have a Beretta that with Mod will paste a 4 inch blob on the pattern board at 16 yards, and a Perazzi that will do the same with Light Mod. You really need to have it checked or shoot it to know for sure what you have.

But a Model 12 16ga on the 20Ga frame is one of the best balanced shotguns ever made.

I DID notice that when I picked it up I had this " oh baby!" feeling, lol.

I just feel it's worth some time and effort, even if mostly a conversation piece. Just a few years short of a century old, means something.

Thanks again to all.
God Bless
Steve

That shotgun is far from a conversation piece. It is what is known as a “shooter”. I have 2 16’s with Mod choke and use them for Ruffed Grouse, Pheasants and Doves. Contrary to most accepted thought, their choke makes little difference with any of the three.

It'll get shot, believe me. I'll figure something out even if I have to roll my own, lol.
It will be a bit. Seems I'm always out of "gun money" (it gets spent, lol) so the dealer always gives me a bit of time to pay something off.
Nice old geezer and his son that runs an old time shop with free coffee and tables to sit and yak with others set up. Free donuts occasionally on weekend.
One in a million kind of guy.

Retired, it's not like I don't have time to put into shells and shooting it. All part of a sport I've loved all my life.

It's tough for me to think I can't make some combo work, with a little effort, but it's just neat to hold and look at too!

Thinking it might be a good one to leave someday for my 2 month old grandson.

thanks again
God Bless

PS. The dealer is a Win collector himself and just called and told me they took it apart and did some measuring. All as it came from the factory to the best of his considerable experience can tell him. 2 9/16 and TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGHT!
He felt bad because "he knew" the early ones were shorter chambered.......but in his 80s, I can't hold that against him.

One of the Smiths would give the best advice, bit can’t it be re-cut for 2 3/4? NBD and probably would cost less than one flat of the 2.5 inch shells. Personally I wouldn’t hesitate.

IIRC the ejection port needs lengthened too for the plastic hull length. Remember, paper hulls are roll crimped.