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Campfire Tracker
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You reject God's Word ...
Recognition that the Bible frequently teaches truth through metaphor isn't rejection of God's word. Do you believe that God reached to the ground, picked up some dust in his hands, and molded it into a man? Do you believe a man that was beaten half to death by Roman soldiers, crucified, and stabbed in the heart with a spear just to make sure.......came back from the dead after three days and walked through a wall to say hi to his friends and let them know he was okay....among other things? Nothing about that narrative was metaphorical. That very same man spoke of things in the book of Genesis such as the creation and Sodom and Gomorrah, as history, not as metaphor.
"Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants". --- William Penn
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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You reject God's Word ...
Recognition that the Bible frequently teaches truth through metaphor isn't rejection of God's word. Do you believe that God reached to the ground, picked up some dust in his hands, and molded it into a man? Do you believe a man that was beaten half to death by Roman soldiers, crucified, and stabbed in the heart with a spear just to make sure.......came back from the dead after three days and walked through a wall to say hi to his friends and let them know he was okay....among other things? Nothing about that narrative was metaphorical. ...And he wasn't stabbed in his heart. Read.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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That very same man spoke of things in the book of Genesis such as the creation and Sodom and Gomorrah, as history, not as metaphor.
True. I didn't say otherwise. Where does Jesus say that God literally reached to the ground, grabbed some dirt, and molded a man with his hands, though? On that point, Genesis doesn't in any respect demand a literal interpretation. Since we know that's not how species came into existence, therefore, there would be no rational justification for giving it a literal interpretation, and much rational justification for giving it a metaphorical one.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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That very same man spoke of things in the book of Genesis such as the creation and Sodom and Gomorrah, as history, not as metaphor.
True. I didn't say otherwise. Where does Jesus say that God literally reached to the ground, grabbed some dirt, and molded a man with his hands, though? He did not say one way or the other unless I missed it somewhere.
"Men must be governed by God or they will be ruled by tyrants". --- William Penn
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Campfire Outfitter
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Ringman - ya think it's possible that you could be more careful about how you quote me?
And If you're accusing me of being brainwashed, I find that kind of funny. The way I see it, you literalists are brainwashed, and so are the atheists.
If you so want to take Genesis literally, how about this passage?
Gen. 4:10
"But the LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground!
You suppose that was audible? What exactly do you think that phrase means?
Or - how about this...
Psalm 19:1-2
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. "
I have yet to hear a recording of "sky speech" - but atheists should pay closer attention to what the heavens have been telling us. BTW - what do you think we should do about this passage, in light of what the heavens have been teaching us about the age of the universe and its beginning? In 1956 a couple guys received the Nobel prize for discovering the earth "groans". Let me see. Where did I read about that? O yea. It's in Romans. But to answer your foolish question..... You anthropomorphize God. You think the Creator of the universe is limited to the senses you experience? If I am anthropomorphizing God, why is he telling Cane to listen? And you didn't answer my question about Psalm 19:1-2. What do we do with that? The heavens have been revealing a tale of a definite beginning....billions of years ago (by our measure). To deny this suggests that Satan has unlimited power to overrule God's vast message. He is the great deceiver - but that's giving him too much credit, I think. To go that far, we'd have to allow that he has the power to corrupt the word and the laws of God. At this point in my studies, I have to question which God is greater - the God who is the ultimate conjurer, or the God who is all-knowing, to and beyond the point that he can design a system that works in ways we are just beginning to understand through science - in some ways that by most expectations should be impossible. I suspect that these two versions of God are one and the same - but it is we who are seeing him differently. A God who can design the working biological cell is infinitely wise and powerful, in my current perception. But to one who remains ignorant or refuses to give credit to science, He would still look like the ultimate magician. I'm perfectly willing to accept that I may be wrong, but I find it really hard to believe that God would encourage us to learn about his creation, make it uncannily accommodating to discovery, and then expect us to disbelieve what we see. First I should remind you not to add to God's Word. God does not tell Cain to "listen". God is telling Cain what He hears. Not what Cain hears. There are numerous people who have come accepted the reality of God by considering the heavenly bodies. I remember one African chief who, while worshiping the sun god, decided..."I am boss here. The witch doctor is second in command. Someday my son will be chief. We are no longer going to worship the sun god or any other god. We are going to worship the Boss God." I was in my early teens when I met the missionary who told me about this. He was an older guy. After he told them about Jesus his tribe, en masse accepted Jesus as the Boss God. Based on this first like I think you need to appeal to God for wisdom. You can't seem to understand a lot of God's Word. God is Infinite. That includes not only neutral to nice, but all that we can conceive. The billions who died in The Flood would certainly say God is harsh. God tells us in His Word when a calamity occurs in a city He did it. Satan, despite his fantastic power, is a created being and has to beg his position before the most high. I didn't add anything. Oh - you're going to tell me that the only translation that is accurate is the KJV. Nice dodge from having to deal with the concept of literalism. Let's move on.... Your witch doctor studied the heavens enough to convince him of the truth. Good. We continue to study the heavens, and by my reckoning, they still point to a creator - only more forcefully. When the Big Bang theory was announced, atheists were loathe to accept it because it points to a beginning. But it was science that brought it to light. That's history now, and we have progressed beyond even that in knowledge that points to a creator. If that threatens your world view and you have no inclination to introspection and appeals for wisdom yourself (BTW - your assumption that I have not done so is a bad attempt at mind reading), you might consider at least choosing your words more carefully when discussing this with other Christians and atheists as well.
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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That very same man spoke of things in the book of Genesis such as the creation and Sodom and Gomorrah, as history, not as metaphor.
True. I didn't say otherwise. Where does Jesus say that God literally reached to the ground, grabbed some dirt, and molded a man with his hands, though? He did not say one way or the other unless I missed it somewhere. Thank you.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Suppose that God had Moses write the account of creation in perfect detail. No - not even that....Suppose he instructed him to give just an overview of the process of how He created the system that has creative power built in (as it must to survive beyond "...God finished his work of creation..."). Just how much of that detail would anyone at the time understand? What would people of Moses's time think of the complex design of the cell? What would they think of quantum mechanics? How distracting would that be? Just something to think about as you remember that the point of Genesis is not the "how"?
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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So, just how old is creation?
We know it is significantly over 13 billion years. We can see fully formed galaxies of stars which are more than 13 billion light years away.
This obviously necessitates that the image we are seeing departed that galaxy 13 billion years ago. Then we must add the time it took for the matter of that region of space to coalesce into stars and start shining. I would have to assume many more billions of years.
Heck, for all we know, every star in that galaxy might have burned out and turned into black holes by this time.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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So, just how old is creation?
We know it is significantly over 13 billion years. We can see fully formed galaxies of stars which are more than 13 billion light years away.
This obviously necessitates that the image we are seeing departed that galaxy 13 billion years ago. Then we must add the time it took for the matter of that region of space to coalesce into stars and start shining. I would have to assume many more billions of years.
Heck, for all we know, every star in that galaxy might have burned out and turned into black holes by this time.
Careful now. The Deceiver is fooling you with science. 
Lunatic fringe....we all know you're out there.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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So, just how old is creation?
We know it is significantly over 13 billion years.
13 billion years by the way time is measured in this realm. But as I mentioned before, if time doesn't exist in God's realm, then there's no reason to try to estimate it's age with man's measurements.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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You reject God's Word ...
Recognition that the Bible frequently teaches truth through metaphor isn't rejection of God's word. Do you believe that God reached to the ground, picked up some dust in his hands, and molded it into a man? I don't think God wishes for us to turn off our higher mental faculties when we read his word. He gave them to us for a reason. You reject sober history, that Jesus and the apostles accepted, and accept man's fallible opinions and espouse them as fact. As far as answering you question, I answer with a question. What does God's Word say?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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You reject God's Word ...
Recognition that the Bible frequently teaches truth through metaphor isn't rejection of God's word. Do you believe that God reached to the ground, picked up some dust in his hands, and molded it into a man? Do you believe a man that was beaten half to death by Roman soldiers, crucified, and stabbed in the heart with a spear just to make sure.......came back from the dead after three days and walked through a wall to say hi to his friends and let them know he was okay....among other things? Doesn't every reasonable person?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,867
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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That very same man spoke of things in the book of Genesis such as the creation and Sodom and Gomorrah, as history, not as metaphor.
True. I didn't say otherwise. Where does Jesus say that God literally reached to the ground, grabbed some dirt, and molded a man with his hands, though? On that point, Genesis doesn't in any respect demand a literal interpretation. Since we know that's not how species came into existence, therefore, there would be no rational justification for giving it a literal interpretation, and much rational justification for giving it a metaphorical one. "So we know that's not how species came into existence..." What an arrogant, willfully ignorant statement !
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Suppose that God had Moses write the account of creation in perfect detail. No - not even that....Suppose he instructed him to give just an overview of the process of how He created the system that has creative power built in (as it must to survive beyond "...God finished his work of creation..."). Just how much of that detail would anyone at the time understand? What would people of Moses's time think of the complex design of the cell? What would they think of quantum mechanics? How distracting would that be? Just something to think about as you remember that the point of Genesis is not the "how"? "Just how much of that detail would anyone at the time understand?" You are missing a lot here. You assume God didn't create Adam to be ten times or fifty times smarter than modern man? If we went back before the Flood in a time machine we would be put in a mental institute for the mentally handicap. God programmed Adam with more information than we can conceive. Adam knew math beyond what our brightest mathematicians understand. You have been brainwashed by the many years of not accepting God at His Word.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Ranger
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Ringman - ya think it's possible that you could be more careful about how you quote me?
And If you're accusing me of being brainwashed, I find that kind of funny. The way I see it, you literalists are brainwashed, and so are the atheists.
If you so want to take Genesis literally, how about this passage?
Gen. 4:10
"But the LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground!
You suppose that was audible? What exactly do you think that phrase means?
Or - how about this...
Psalm 19:1-2
"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. "
I have yet to hear a recording of "sky speech" - but atheists should pay closer attention to what the heavens have been telling us. BTW - what do you think we should do about this passage, in light of what the heavens have been teaching us about the age of the universe and its beginning? In 1956 a couple guys received the Nobel prize for discovering the earth "groans". Let me see. Where did I read about that? O yea. It's in Romans. But to answer your foolish question..... You anthropomorphize God. You think the Creator of the universe is limited to the senses you experience? If I am anthropomorphizing God, why is he telling Cane to listen? And you didn't answer my question about Psalm 19:1-2. What do we do with that? The heavens have been revealing a tale of a definite beginning....billions of years ago (by our measure). To deny this suggests that Satan has unlimited power to overrule God's vast message. He is the great deceiver - but that's giving him too much credit, I think. To go that far, we'd have to allow that he has the power to corrupt the word and the laws of God. At this point in my studies, I have to question which God is greater - the God who is the ultimate conjurer, or the God who is all-knowing, to and beyond the point that he can design a system that works in ways we are just beginning to understand through science - in some ways that by most expectations should be impossible. I suspect that these two versions of God are one and the same - but it is we who are seeing him differently. A God who can design the working biological cell is infinitely wise and powerful, in my current perception. But to one who remains ignorant or refuses to give credit to science, He would still look like the ultimate magician. I'm perfectly willing to accept that I may be wrong, but I find it really hard to believe that God would encourage us to learn about his creation, make it uncannily accommodating to discovery, and then expect us to disbelieve what we see. First I should remind you not to add to God's Word. God does not tell Cain to "listen". God is telling Cain what He hears. Not what Cain hears. There are numerous people who have come accepted the reality of God by considering the heavenly bodies. I remember one African chief who, while worshiping the sun god, decided..."I am boss here. The witch doctor is second in command. Someday my son will be chief. We are no longer going to worship the sun god or any other god. We are going to worship the Boss God." I was in my early teens when I met the missionary who told me about this. He was an older guy. After he told them about Jesus his tribe, en masse accepted Jesus as the Boss God. Based on this first like I think you need to appeal to God for wisdom. You can't seem to understand a lot of God's Word. God is Infinite. That includes not only neutral to nice, but all that we can conceive. The billions who died in The Flood would certainly say God is harsh. God tells us in His Word when a calamity occurs in a city He did it. Satan, despite his fantastic power, is a created being and has to beg his position before the most high. I didn't add anything. Oh - you're going to tell me that the only translation that is accurate is the KJV. Nice dodge from having to deal with the concept of literalism. Let's move on.... Your witch doctor studied the heavens enough to convince him of the truth. Good. We continue to study the heavens, and by my reckoning, they still point to a creator - only more forcefully. When the Big Bang theory was announced, atheists were loathe to accept it because it points to a beginning. But it was science that brought it to light. That's history now, and we have progressed beyond even that in knowledge that points to a creator. If that threatens your world view and you have no inclination to introspection and appeals for wisdom yourself (BTW - your assumption that I have not done so is a bad attempt at mind reading), you might consider at least choosing your words more carefully when discussing this with other Christians and atheists as well. You added the word "listen". It's not there. The KJV has too many errors for me to use regularly. I don't understand your idea that I try to "dodge from having to deal with the concept of literalism." I accept God's Word as written. Some is historical. Some is poetry. Some has metaphors. The context helps those who are serious understand Him. I see you didn't read the story correctly. It was the chief. Perhaps you do the same thing with God's Word. I am a presupposionalist. That means my world view starts with the idea God's Word is correct and anything that deviates is incorrect to one degree or another. You are accepting the Big Bang as accepted science. Take a look at google and discover how many evolutionist do not accept it.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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What does God's Word say?
In part, it says that Egypt is an iron furnace. Do you accept that, literally? Or, was it perhaps a metaphor?
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I will have to note that it here that I first done seen the term, "PhD Creationist." LOL
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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So, just how old is creation?
We know it is significantly over 13 billion years. We can see fully formed galaxies of stars which are more than 13 billion light years away.
This obviously necessitates that the image we are seeing departed that galaxy 13 billion years ago. Then we must add the time it took for the matter of that region of space to coalesce into stars and start shining. I would have to assume many more billions of years.
Heck, for all we know, every star in that galaxy might have burned out and turned into black holes by this time. You have not read enough about this subject. Both creation and evolution have a time travel problem. With the Big Bang you are limited to what we think we know now. With God, Who created time dilation that has been proven by scientists, there is no problem with a six day old universe getting light from the farthest star or galaxy. There is a book available which you may or may not find interesting. (The author is educated at least as much as anyone on this forum.) It is named "Starlight & Time" by Dr. Russell Humphreys Ph.D. He's made some fantastic predictions of what will be on other planets which have been correct.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,867
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,867 |
What does God's Word say?
In part, it says that Egypt is an iron furnace. Do you accept that, literally? Or, was it perhaps a metaphor? I'll let you try to figure it out.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,773 Likes: 21
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,773 Likes: 21 |
What does God's Word say?
In part, it says that Egypt is an iron furnace. Do you accept that, literally? Or, was it perhaps a metaphor? I'll let you try to figure it out. I know the answer. It's important for you to state where you stand on it. I know why you won't, though. So does everyone else.
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