Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 444 or 348

If you already have 45-70's, I don't know what a 444 would get you. It's about 3/4 the power and essentially the same trajectory. Now the 348 would be something different, so that's the route I'd go. But brass availability is a thing these days and not likely to improve anytime soon.

I agree regardin 45-70 and 444. I however, found 348 brass fairly quickly. Bought some here on the fire from Shrapnel too.

From what I know there were 4 model 71s, in .33, 3 in 45-70 and 2 in .308. The 45-70 sold for $45,000 at Amoeskeag Auctions, March 2023

I would prefer a 356 Win

With so many cartridges available it comes down to the gun.
I had a Win 71 and just loved the way it carried and shot. Not ballistically superior to most of my other levers. But high on the "cool factor".
Tax bill forced me to sell it. I still have the reloading gear, just in case.

Took me less than 30 days to find and buy over 500 rounds of new Winchester brass and another 250 once fired Super X. Cost me $400 give or take . Also bought 4 boxes of new factory ammo and 7 vintaqe boxes.

I’m a tad late to the game but I’ll play. Anyway the 348 Win had its place but if it wasn’t for that wonderful model 71 it would have been forgotten long ago. The 444 however has never really been optimized for several reasons. (1); it was down loaded for lever actions requiring flat tipped bullets so 265 grains was the limit for most shooters. That’s still a lot of bullet but trajectory was nothing to rave about. (2); the early factory loads were short heavy revolver bullets (3); bullet casters could size for Marlin’s ‘ Micro ‘ rifling and get heavier bullets but you really needed custom molds, but you still couldn’t shoot spire point or bore riding bullet designs, (4); the Marlin rate of twist was considered too slow at 1-28 for longer heavier bullets. Ackley proved 1-18 or 1-20 best. So anyway this cartridge came with lots of built in limitations not to mention the fact that Bill Ruger’s #1’s and #3’s were never offered in 444. That in itself is a puzzling mystery since the falling block action is so well suited to straight walled cartridges. According to Warren Center ( Thompson Center ) Mr. Ruger was in a pissing contest with Marlin’s management and refused the cartridge. Must have been serious cause after all the years it was never offered. Had a Ruger falling block been offered the factories would have no doubt loaded much more powerful ammo.

Now I have a one of a kind Ruger #3 that my late Brother had Ackley build for him. He was pretty close with Mr. Ackley and was talked into chambering it in 444. It was a project that Ackley wanted to tackle and the deal was he could use it to test with and sell to my Brother for a deal. It’s got a 25” barrel, #4 contour and a 18” twist. It shoots phenomenally holding 1/2” at 100 yds and 2.5” at 200 yards. The big 300 grain Barnes bullets make 2250 fps with a compressed load of H335. Being a single shot, pointy bullets like Hawks become legitimate 300 yard killers. So with the correct rifle, some handloading and decent bullets the 444 becomes a much different animal. I’ve taken two moose ( blown both shoulders out ) and one cow elk with this rifle so I’m sold. Anyway I prefer straight walled cartridges as I’m convince bottlenecks are just a fad

Rick

I recently had a Ruger K1B rebarreled to 444 Marlin. It has a 22" Douglas Premium barrel instead of the Lilja my local smith normally uses. So far I've only had time to run Nosler 240 JSPs through it with a middle of the road load of Benchmark but wow, what a promising shooter. It put 6 rounds into a single ragged hole at 50 yards while I was breaking it in and getting the scope on paper. This load averaged right around 2200 fps. I have yet to see what it will do at 100 yards, or with the Hawk 275 spitzers I've had good luck with in a 44 mag 1885 low wall.

The same smith texted me today to tease me with a pic of the 24" .348 Win barrel, also a Douglas, he put on a No. 1S for me just this week. I expect to get the finished product next week and have a few boxes of the Hawk 230 spitzers waiting to load for it after I try some of the stuff I shoot in a Browning 71. Really looking forward to this rifle since I've been waiting for it for some time.

As somebody said on another thread about new cartridges, if you want to try something, spin a new barrel on a gun you already have. I've had several No. 1s rebarreled for this very reason. None of mine have the pedigree of your Ackley, or course, but they are so much fun.

Good luck with the two. Great cartridges.

My vote is 348 all day long.

This debate always casts the 348 WCF as a much better chamber than the 444 Marlin, it’s not, it’s just different. Its somewhat like comparing a 375 H&H to a 458 Win Mag, both excellent for their intended purpose. The 444 Marlin has a 23% greater frontal area over the 348 WCF, the 458 Win Mag has a 22% greater frontal area over the 375 H&H. Obviously the 444 Marlin, 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag can utilize telescopic sights, the 348 WCF on a 71 platform would need a scout set up to do that, most do not drill into their prized 71 barrel tops.

So in comparison for heavy game like elk, moose and brown bear (I won’t get into all the .429 bullet types and weights) the 444 Marlin can utilize about 30+ types from 200 gr - 355 gr, the 348 Win may have about 3 types from 200 gr - 250 gr. So which is more versatile, especially with telescopic sight use at 200 yards on game listed above?

Back to comparisons, let’s use a 250 gr Barnes in the 348 WCF and a 335 gr Rimrock HCGC in the 444 Marlin. Let’s look at a 150 yard shot on game above with a 125 yard zero.

Remember you have an 85 gr weight advantage and a 23% greater frontal area with the 444 Marlin:

@2,350fps,ME 348 WCF =3,065 ft-lbs E
@1,866fps150 yds, 348 WCF =1,933 ft-lbs E

@2,100fps,ME 444 Marlin =3,280 ft-lbs E
@1,624fps150 yds,444 Marlin=1,961 ft-lbs E

@ 150 yards the 348 WCF shoots about an 1” flatter and drifts 1.5” less than the Marlin. Not a big deal considering the 444 Marlin in a 336 or 94 AE platform will have telescopic sights for significantly better judgment in bullet placement.

Back to the 375 H&H and 458 Win Mag comparison. We have the 375 shooting 300 gr Barnes and the 458 shooting a 400 gr Barnes. At 150 yds and 175 yard zero.

@2,600fps,ME 375 H&H =4,502 ft-lbs E
@2,139fps150 yds 375 H&H =3,049 ft-lbs E

@2,350fps,ME 458 WM =4,904 ft-lbs E
@1,866fps150 yds 458 WM =3,092 ft-lbs E

@150 yards the 375 H&H shoots +1.09” and drifts 3.2”, the 458 WM is +1.46” and drifts 4.2”. Again not a big deal.

All are great big game chambers, but the real question is when comparing them what does the added bullet weight and frontal area offer? Throughout most uses it is reasonable and proven throughout many applications they offer significantly deeper penetration and much greater wounding and blood loss trauma.

My point is do not underestimate the ability of the 444 Marlin when loaded heavy, it is a bone crusher with similar attributes when used on thin skin game as the 458 Win Mag is on thin and thick skin game at 100-150 yds. A 335 gr HCGC will out penetrate any 348 WCF load hands down with a significantly greater size wound channel and severe trauma/blood loss. Just like the 458 WM will do over the 375 H&H at 100-150 yards. All the above will kill just fine, but the wider bores will offer plenty of reach at 150 yards and a better solution to close encounters with their heavier bullets and greater frontal area. There is no substitute for those two advantages at 150 yards.

And with better flying bullets out of a single shot it changes the numbers and reach into another bracket. With a full case of H 355 capped with with 265 grain Hawk round nose bullets at around 2300 fps it becomes a legitimate 225 to possibly 250 yard killer

Rick

This is making me want a Browning 71. But I need to sell of my Remington 673

348win all day long or my 348 Ackley. If I'm using any 44cal it's going to be my Marlin 44mag carbine. If I need to shoot a tube of lipstick I have several 45-70's.

I don't hate the 444, I just fail to see what it brings to the table. What is a 444 going to do that an smaller 454casull or 460s&w not going to accomplish, let alone a 45-70?

You will love it. Mine came from a PA native

It was was a graduation present to Bob Bell in 1942…….got to hunt it 4 years later he did….…busy in Europe …..

It had the barrel shortened. And it “was hunted”. His big game rifle when he went west after the war. Ear and elk and such. Hunted all over the continent.

He became a writer and did the scope section of Gun Digest with John Amber. Then editor of Pennsylvania Game News.

He was a hunter. Hated fishing. And a serious shooter.

He wrote about the use of that 71 many times. He hunted it working in a logging camp. When he went into the thick stuff he took it.

I read GD since the early 60s. Loved scopes. So I read his other articles……and wanted a 71.

Moved back to PA from CA and talking to my brothers best friend and it got to guns.
“I hunt with Bob all the time….my wife is his daughter’s best friend”. Says he.

Well Bob and I enjoyed scotch and guns. His 71 is still the slick action it was in 1942…. And I already know who it goes to when my time comes.

Sorry for the rambling…….all 3 calibers will work. The 71 action and good times are hard to beat.

Pretty cool! I grew up reading Bob Bell

I just bought another 100 each 348 brass. They seem to be easier to find than 444 perhaps?

My favorite load so far for my '71 is:

348 Win, Browning 71, 220 Barnes FP 9 ½, 59.5 grains RE19, 0.888" 5 shot group at 54 yards or 1.57 MOA, 2,137 FPS (iron sights)

Sighted in at 3" above zero at 100 yards:


Take a 444 (from load data):
265 Hornady FNSP IMR IMR-4198 45.3 2,066

A 265 gr .430” bullet load at 2,066 fps, what a joke. Even Hornady’s over-the-counter load had a MV of 2,350 fps for the 265 gr FP 444 Marlin load. Also, how many game animals have been taken at 300 yards with a 348 Win and open sights? Why not compare to a 444 Marlin loaded with a 280 gr load at 2,250 fps (CorBon load), how about a 335 gr load at 2,125 fps (that’s an Underwood Ammo Load) out at 200 yards. Showing a bit of bias towards the 348 Win.

I looked at Load data and that was the fastest 265 grain load listed.

The point is the 444 loses energy fast with poorer SD and BC. It also has more of a rainbow trajectory. What’s the upside to that?

I have shown what was a typical load. Sorry your favorite didn’t show to well.

I have loads that get almost 1,000 ft-lbs more energy at the muzzle than what you’re showing. Again are you killing game at 300 yards with a 348 Win with no telescopic sights? Both Win and Marlin rifles in 444 Marlin can utilize telescopic sights, at 200 yards there’s no rainbow involved. Inside 200 yards loaded heavy to its potential the 444 Marlin is a crusher. Again, 23% more frontal area and roughly 100 grains more bullet weight for the 444 Marlin over the 348 Win.