Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting 30-06 vs 6.5 Creedmoor, with contraints

You have $700 for the rifle, $400 for the scope, and $100 for the rings. No after-market parts for the rifle other than a sling. No range finder. Factory ammo only; one load must do it all. Shooting prone from a backpack rest. Continental North America. Antelope, deer, moose, elk, caribou, sheep, goat, bison, wolf, and bears. The 30-06 or the 6.5 Creedmoor are your only two choices. KISS applies for all tie breakers. Once you step away from the plane, boat, or truck you are humping this rifle in - no horses, no ATV... Describe your medicine and tell me why. Describe how you set up your ballistic dope chart for the hunt.

My pick is M700 Long Range in 30-06, Burris with Ballistic Plex reticle, Federal 180 grain blue box or Premium Partition.

Curious on your reason for the constraint on the range finder?

yes, no range finder... improvise...

Whichever cartridge I'd want a barrel lighter than that varmint contour on the 700 Long Range.

i was thinking the same thing ...

my thinking is the longer, heavier barrel adds some stability for the shot, and a bit more mojo for a flatter trajectory for the 30-06, and given no rangefinder, every little bit helps.

M700 LR, really? that would be at the bottom of my list.

I think a Barret or Kimber in 6.5 with a good scope you can dial, handloads with a 142 LRAB or 127 TTSX

I would even give thought to having two scopes a heavy scope with turrets and a light scope with dots.

The heavy scope on the plains and the light scope in the mountains.

you are busting the $ limits

Oooh sorry, my reading comprehension sucks. Missed no rangefinder also.

Ok so with those conditions I vote for a Ruger Hawkeye in 30-06 loaded with 168TTSX with a Leupold 6x

Just to go along with a pretty silly topic.....you're confusing balance with stability. Also the extra barrel length on your 3006 is pretty meaningless....

heck, i am glad to make it this far without someone hating on the 30-06.

Tikka 30-06
Leupold vx3
Hornady precision hunter if it has to be factory

As far as dope chart, I’m gonna go with holdovers via a BDC style reticle. Verify distances before the hunt and paste em on the rifle.

I would go to Gunbroker and buy this Sako 30-06 with the Leupold scope for $799.99. Then I would sell that scope for $200.00 and since the gun already has rings, I would take the remaining money and buy this used German Zeiss Diavari 3-9X36 scope on ebay, and buy 165 grain ammunition for it and go hunting.

I would sight the gun in at just under 1 inch high at 100 yards, and hold the vertical point of the "Z" plex right on for 300 yards and I could kill anything in North America with that combination. Your point blank distance with that setting is still 200 yards and at 300 you put that point on the target and hit it.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/785930534

eBay item number:352474820948

Browning abolt 30’06 just took a nice 8pt last year at 495 yards. Complete pass through, hornady 165 BTSP interlock bullet loaded to 2850 FPS. NO flies on the old ‘06. Wouldn’t shoot at an animal at much further than that-600 yards tops.

I vote your set up as “most useless”

THE Remington 700 is fine for the rifle and 30-06 is fine too, but I want a Leupold over a Burris

Burris/Tikka both give me a case of the s hits!!

LRH forum, and LRF is what makes LRH practical to some degree, for most of us. How far do you plan on shooting that setup?

i could have phrased the question better. let me use an analogy: i have bowhunting buddies who use compounds with four pins set at 10, 20, 30, and 40 yards and they can consistently hit 9" pie plates at those ranges with those setups. but some of them use mechanical broadheads, and so won't shoot at a game animal at 40 yards, for fear of inadequate penetration. others are confident to shoot plates at 40 yards but not game animals past 20...regardless of broadhead. I use a recurve and won't chance a shot on deer past 20 yards.

so with respect to LRH, if you are going to limit yourself to very simple equipment, no range finder, no turret twisting, etc. then what "primitive" combo sets you up for success and what would your longest comfortable range for that setup be? So, to use Shrapnel's reply for example, he seems extremely confident with that setup he described out to 300 yards, and perhaps further, where he is relying on his experience, knowledge of chosen load's trajectory, how to dope wind, estimated range to an animal given its size in the scope, and how to extract the most out of his reticle for ranging.

I would do a Tikka stainless (or a Browning X-bolt but that might exceed your price), a Burris or Sig Whiskey scope with battistic reticle, Warne rings on the Tikka (the ones that clamp directly on the dovetail and have the recoil lug in them) or a DNZ one piece on the X-bolt. Ammo would be Federal of some sort, either 165 or 180 grain for the larger critters out west.

I have an X-Bolt (in 300 H&H), tell me more about the DNZ one piece please...

I know you guys are having lots of fun here, and I will play along for a bit.

I did everything quite successfully with a $200 used Win 670 with a $60 Weaver V7 2.5-7x32 on top from 1978 to 1995. Elk, deer, coyotes, fox, muskrat, rock chucks, whistle pigs, oh yes hundreds and hundreds of three ounce whistle pigs each spring. All with that old '06 zeroed at 300 yds. I played with a bunch of loads and bullets from 110 to 220 gr. But when putting meat on the table, or shooting for who paid the bar tab that night, it was a 165 gr Ballistic Tip over 60 gr of H4831.

I absolutely refuse to shoot factory ammo. I still do not trust any adjustable turrets to absolutely return to zero every time, and they are superfluous when shooting inside the range one is limited to with no range finder.

Hathcock, according to his book, sighted in dead on at 600 yds, and had no problem shooting to 1000 yds or beyond. But he was just as happy to wound as he was to kill and he was shooting at a five foot tall target. We, as hunters, are obligated to cleanly kill our target species, so our target is a bit smaller in vertical dimension.

I have never met any man capable of estimating range in excess of 500 yds accurately enough to compensate for steepening trajectory past 500 yds. As far as I am concerned, 500 yds is a hard limit without a range finder.

If shopping today for a one rifle battery on a budget, I would start with one of those Walmart Vanguards in 30-06 for $349 and then add a Leupold VX3 3.5-10x40 for $320 from Optics Planet with a set of Talley LW rings for $49 from Sportsman's Whse. Which puts us inside $750 even with a bit of sales tax.

Today's load would be a 168 gr Ballistic Tip with a bc of .490 with enough RL22 to push it to 3000 fps from the 24 inch barrel of the Vanguard. Trajectory would be about +3.75" @ 100 yds. +4.5" @200 yds. 0 @ 300 yds. -10" @ 400 yds. and -27" @ 500 yds

Gawd yes.......

Dogger, your choices suck, and this topic is idiotic

lol, thanks for the replies. interesting post, Idaho Shooter, thanks, i have a bunch of 180 BTs but not the lighter weights. i know i have lost my mind, because i have rifles in 30 cal, 7mm and 6mm, and i am leaning more towards the 30s these days....

OK, i will open up choices to 30-06, 300 H&H, 6.5 Creedmoor, 280 Remington, and 26 Nosler... handloads are now in. still no LRF

IMO if you are dead set against an LRF, you have no business shooting at game beyond the point blank range of whatever cartridge you select. Good LRF's are relatively inexpensive and any scope that has dots or turrents to twist go hand in hand with the LRF. As previously stated by another poster, once you go beyond a certain range no man can reliably guess range accurately enough to compensate for the arching trajectory. You want to shoot rocks at those ranges fine, but not live game.john deere

my self imposed limit is +/- 6 inches on wind drift, the ponder is how far i can push the range, given the advantage different reticles might offer. i don't see me getting much past 350 yards

Under those constraints,I would buy about any cheap 30-06,cheap Bushnell scope and ammo for under $500 and kill anything on the continent at 200 yards and under.

or why not a synthetic grey X-Bolt chambered in 26 Nosler scoped with a useful ballistic reticle...might be good to 500 yards...

Can you estimate range at 500 yards to +/- 100? 10/10 times in various terain and light?

heck no.

OK, relaxing another constraint: LRF are now in.

Total acquisition cost for rifle, scope, rings, and LRF is limited to $1500. Reloading allowed. with respect to scopes: NO TURRET TWISTING!

Would not change a thing from my original answer. Unless you are going to let us punch the 280 to AI, then I would use the 280 AI with a decent high bc bullet of 160 to 165 gr. I know from personal experience the 162 gr Hornady btsp will kill elk well to 400 yds, but I started it a couple hundred fps faster than the 280 AI will.

If you are using a LRF, think about this.

It just ain't that hard to hold under a bit for shots at 75 yds to 250 yds. Everybody I knew did it that way up until 20 years ago. Some of us even kept a range card taped to the stock way back forty to fifty years ago.

So I would buy a dependable scope with ballistic hash marks like the Boone and Crockett, or Ballistic plex. I would zero the main wire at 300 yds, and shoot to determine where the lower wires are actually zeroed. Add that data to the range card, and you will be set for a considerable distance.

What did we do before LRF? We traveled our favorite hunting areas in the summer on horses or motorcycles with our rifles and chosen hunting loads. We picked out targets from the landscape, usually rocks, and bet each other on the actual distance from trail to target. Rifles were fired and distance was verified by bullet drop on target.

Viper pst, 450, Walmart weatherby 250, or 500 on a tikka in 06. 180 gr partitions. Spend the rest on practice ammo

I pick a 6x42 Leupold and whatever .30-'06 would fit under it within budget. Weaver Top Mount rings and bases to but more money toward the rifle. The .30-'06 is never a mistake.

Yeah, if I were going to be packing a remington 700, it would be an older mountain rifle.. Just me though. However, My first pick would be a model 70..

Kinda bass ackwards thinking. If your not using a range finder, you shouldn't be shooting past 400 yards anyways. You can easily do that with a skinny barrel. If no rangefinder, I'd set up zero for MPBR and limit my shots to no further than 400. Past that and your range guistimate could get you in trouble.. Just sayin..

Excellent post. I agree..

You are busting our balls here. Again, if you are shooting to 500 yards, you probably should be using a LRF. No amount of 26 Nosler or similar cartridges are going to compensate for poor range calculation at that distance. It could mean a wounded game animal on your hands if you take such a shot in the dark...

LRFs are now in. Which LRF for <= $500?
turret twisting still a No Go.
which reticle in which set and forget scope?
thanks

I have a Leupld RX-1200 TBRw dna which I purchased new within your price range. It is preprogrammed with various ballistic curves to give direct readout of holdover. And of course, compensates for uphill or downhill angles.

what shrapnel said. sako 30-06 . or a Remington 700 mountain. I have both.

did some basic reading up on LRF,,, one of the common concerns seems to be them failing after three to five years, and even companies like Leupold not standing behind them... i sure don't want to be replacing an LRF every three to five years...

Stay away from Leupold and find a good used Leica!

What amazes me in this conversation is that people have become 100% dependent on laser range finders to determine range.

Those funny little squiggly things that clutter up the inside of an optic can be used to estimate range, using something called the "Mil relation formula".....

When the conditions do not allow for an LRF to work properly, you can still range the target.






Back to the original question, I could be quite happy with a lite stainless Tikka T3 30-06 with and SWFA MIL/MIL fixed 10X in Talleys shooting whatever 165 or 180 premium bullet it preferred.

30/06 yep
Tikka stainless lite yep
6x SWFA
sportsmatch mounts
Good factory ammo
Leica range finder
The world is your oyster and 500 suddenly seems close

I have a bushnell arc that;s 5-6 years old, and a new sig 2k. The bushnell gets used more because it was cheap and I don't mind risking it while hunting.

Yep, I would also go with the 700 LR but chambered for a 300 RUM. Cartridge with a 30-06 equivalent load ( 180gr Bullet )

rule of thumb i have heard often is a mature whitetail is 18" when measured vertically from base of back of neck at shoulder blades to chest hairs on the bottom... with a vital zone of 8 inches. i'd be hesitant to risk a range estimation with mil reticle at anything past 400 yards, given bullet drop past 400... but i think a mil reticle could provide a very fast range estimate, good enough, within 400 yards... i need to stop thinking this and just get out and shoot.

T3 in 30-06, M8 6x42, zero at 200 with 168 Barnes Vortex, 300 yard max range.

The Vortex ammo I chronographed over my Oehler 35P only recorded 2662fps which is incredibly slow for the 168gn bullet weight.
It shot just under the inch and would be fine for most hunting, but would not be my choice for a single load for everything at all hunting ranges for a .30/06.
John

My 30-06 is a pushfeed Win M70 FTW with a blindbox McMillan stock straight from the factory. It was sold to me cheap ($350 shipped) years ago because the owner was honest enough and it had a pitted barrel. Well I shot it and it's acceptable hunting accuracy out to 450 yards (handloaded 2nd's 180gr PT) so I left it alone. Has a 2.5x8 VariXIII with a Premier Reticle mildot. I'm getting ready to update my loads with new powders and 178gr ELD-X. If I can get above 2800fps with good accuracy the old 06 will have new life breathed into it. Oh old Leica 1200 LRF.

Don't Know how we ever killed anything before the range finder came out? You might try shooting enough to figure out how what ever rifle you are using shoots at what ever distance you think you are shooting. Rio7

Used/NOS Tikka T3 30-06 $500
Black Friday 3-9x42 MQ $450
30mm DNZ $65
Sig Kilo $400

I could really cut the rifle price in half with a used $250 Savage 111 or Marlin XL7.

I think I could get to the point of ranging comfortably with my reticle to about 600 yards. Past that I think things would get tricky without a pretty high confidence value for the size of the target. I calculate target sizes with my reticle regularly with known distances. Same equation but there is going to be more error when your estimated taret size is an input. With enough experience I'm sure things could be stretched out more but I doubt that many shooters can range a game animal (with reticle) at over 800 yards accurately enough to be confident of a first round hit in the vitals.

Why use a scope when you have iron sights. Why use a boat tail bullet when there are flat base. The point of a range finder is if you are in unknown territory why not use any advantage you can? At extended ranges if ou are using something that pushes a 140 grain bullet at about 2600 fps you better know how far it is. The same bullet at 3000 plus takes a lot of the guess work out. Happy hunting. Ed k

Just keep in mind that the least you want for hunting bears, as mentioned by the OP, is a long range riflescope unless the low end of the power is from 1x to perhaps 3x. And even at 3x you could not find the right spot to shoot on a moose at 20-30 yards (all you see is brown).

You have $700 for the rifle, $400 for the scope, and $100 for the rings. No after-market parts for the rifle other than a sling. No range finder. Factory ammo only; one load must do it all. Shooting prone from a backpack rest. Continental North America. Antelope, deer, moose, elk, caribou, sheep, goat, bison, wolf, and bears. The 30-06 or the 6.5 Creedmoor are your only two choices. KISS applies for all tie breakers. Once you step away from the plane, boat, or truck you are humping this rifle in - no horses, no ATV... Describe your medicine and tell me why. Describe how you set up your ballistic dope chart for the hunt.

OK, I'll play.
Pretty easy really.

Rifle: Used M70 Winchester Featherweight , in 30-06. Such rifles are available for around $700 all the time. 6.5 CM is an excellent caliber, but if the rules say I have only 1 choice of 2, so that would mean it's my only gun. Correct? Well the 30-06 beats the pants off the CM when it comes to a one-size-fits-all cartridge.

Ammo would be loaded a Nosler Partitions or some bonded core bullets in 180 grain, depending on what shot the best in that gun. Because the rules say Bison, moose (both of which I have hunted here in Wyoming as well as other places) and Bears (that means Grizzlies where I live) I would not even consider the 6.5CM if I could have a 30-06.

For the sake of this "answer game" I assume my ammo allotment would be unlimited. If not, the rules laid down here are not realistic because for the cost of about 7-10 boxes of ammo I can buy a basic hand-loading set, and so 'factory ammo only" is less realistic then "unlimited factory ammo" would be.

Scope would be a good 2X-7X, probably a Redfield, or one of the German Fixed 4X by Kaps if I could find one used for the required $400.

No ATV and no horses? That's how I have hunted about 75% of my life and that constitutes over 50 years of big game hunting in 9 states and 5 countries. No problem that I can't overcome and have not been overcoming for 1/2 a century.

Range card?

I zero at 200 yards and I know my drops at 300, 400 500 and 550. I don't shoot past that. I have when I was younger,( quite a few times) but I grew a brain and stopped doing it around 24 years ago. I have a self imposed limit of 500 meters now. (or "close to 550 yards", about 547 actually --- but that's close enough) In that time I have never had to keep my promise to myself because I have not ever needed to shoot past 450 yards on anything, anywhere, at any time, when I was hunting. Getting that close or closer is not hard. If it is, you need to learn to hunt more then you need to learn to shoot.

So a "range card" with your bullet drops is quite easy to make, when you select the load and chronograph it for true velocity. Within 1 month of shooting you would not need a card at all. You'd remember the drops out to 550 very easily.

Next you need to shoot enough in differing wind conditions to learn your drifts. Buying gizmos is a bad way to learn to shoot well, in comparison to firing a lot of ammo over a lot of different conditions, altitudes, angles and temperatures. So this comes back to my comment above about unlimited ammo or hand-loads. When I was in my teens I shot out the throat of my 270 Winchester and I did that in 3 years, starting with a brand new barrel. That rifle went from shooting under 1 MOA to about 3 MOA so I has a new barrel put in. I had to have the gun re-barreled when I was 18. I did it again and I re-barreled it myself when I was 29. It's now on it's 3rd barrel and has many thousands of rounds fired though that one too. I KNOW how to shoot that rifle well. Ammo is needed to shoot that much. Hand loads cost about 40% of factory loads.

So that's my answers.
My choices are my own and have the same amount of merit as anyone's, and no more.

I assume that's why the "answer game" was played here in the 1st place.

Sorry, Ray, that's simply not so. A typical 3x riflescope (whether fixed or variable) has a field of view at least 30 at 100 yards. This means that at 20 yards the FOV is 6 feet, more than enough so that not "all you see if brown." At 30 yards it's 1.5 times as wide as at 20, 9 feet. I know this not just from theory but by shooting big animals at those sorts of ranges with 3x. It's easy to pick the right spot.

Of course, if the magnification is less than 3x, the FOV is even larger.

I haven't tried it, but can a scope that is set a 3x be focused at 20 yards? In my relatively narrow view, in the bear and moose country where I live, I prefer a riflescope such as 1-4x, 1-7x, or 2.5-8x. I could be wrong, but a compromise must be made relating to riflescope power and the type of hunt one plans to do (long shots versus close shots, and small animals versus large ones (or even dangerous ones). A 1.5x riflescope delivers around 66-feet of FOV at 100 yards.

I have never been charged by a bear, but according to some hunters who have, the such FOV of a riflescope is reduced to nothing during a charge. I am a big chicken, so my riflescope is set at its lowest magnification during the moose season in Alaska.

Yeah, it's in focus at 20 yards--and so what if it isn't?

I've also shot a running wild boar at 10 yards with a 6x scope. The image wasn't perfectly focused, but I could tell the scope was pointed at the shoulders, and when the fuzzy reticle was in the right place, pulled the trigger. The bullet broke both shoulders, the pig's snout hit the dirt, and he flipped over, lying dead pointed in the opposite direction.

A scope's FOV " reduced to nothing during a charge"? Interesting. I haven't heard that from Phil Shoemaker. Maybe he'll comment here, but suspect he's still busy guiding hunters.

If Dogger is trying to duplicate the "one man one rifle" method, that is fine. Given what he has presently, I'd keep the .280 Rem., put on a 2.5-8x36 or something similar in a Leupie and sell all the rest. If I was starting from scratch, I'd get a .270 Win., same scope options and keep the "up all" weight to < 7.25 pounds.

I shot a moose at about 15-20 feet with 6x36 no problem. It works better if you open the other eye.

Amazing, ain't it?

But aside from that, I've generally been able to know which end of an animal the scope's pointed toward at close range, because of pointing the rifle in that direction. There's a big difference in the angle between front end and back end of, say, a moose or Cape buffalo at close range.

My LGS is going out of business; the M700 LR in 30-06 sold, as did the camo M700 in 270 that has been a wall queen for years... the RAR Predator in 6.5 Creedmoor is still there, but i spent the money on a G17 Vickers instead...

so...

i am left pondering the thought of learning how to twist turrets with benefit of a LRF... for the 300 H&H which doesn't have a scope... or stick to KISS with an illuminated duplex and LRF

i have a feeling that in Va i will get more use out of an illuminated duplex at last light...

I have gone through the same mental gymnastics myself, either packing in or flyin and left to hunt. Game from deer/sheep/goats to moose/elk/caribou with lots of grizzlies/black bear around. For one rifle it comes down to a 30-06/270/280/7 mag, crf (pre 64 or quality mauser), moderate leupold variable, weighing 7 1/4-7.5lbs, quality synthetic stock. I'd prefer the 06 or 7 mag for the bigger/uglier stuff. Pre 64 fwt in a mcmillan edge stock is the current rifle of choice.

what i learned from all this is i just need to stick with what i know: my M700 in 280 Remington, and the Conquest 3-9x40; and complement the setup with a good rangefinder. by good i mean something super accurate and repeatable out to 300 yards. i doubt i will ever take a shot beyond that at a big game animal.

I haven't reread the whole thing to see what was said before, but if 300 yards is going to be your outer limit then you're more than well equipped with a 280 topped by a 3-9x40. You won't be needing an upper end rangefinder either.

Welcome back to yourself....you've just gone full circle. Leave your looney card by the door. Been there, done/doing/did that. You won't make any friends talking that way for sure. I'm in your boat, but with a M70 270 and 330 yards is my max 'cause that's where the still is where I shoot.

Simple.


What's your ammo of choice?

As for range finder, my Vortex Ranger 1000 is a dandy. Everyone hates them too.

Virginia was south of the MD line, right?

Isnt that the truth.

looking hard at the Vortex Ranger 1300

I like pretty ammo... so for factory it is Federal, Norma, and Nosler...

handloads i like the 150 BT.

OK, thanks for all the advice and opinions... I am going to drop the $$$ for a Leica 2000-B rangefinder.

Given:
My 280 is an M700 CDL dropped into a B&C 2265 Alaskan Ti, Talley ltwts, and Conquest 3-9x40 Z-Plex
The complement is an X-Bolt Medallion in 300 H&H... still have not decided on a scope... any thoughts on scoping the 300? scope/ reticle choice needs to offer something the Conquest and Vortex do not
The freezing cold wet lousy weather rifle is M77 Mk II in 300RSAUM with Vortex 3-9x40... duplex

I hope to get out to Quantico 1000m range next year to see what I can accomplish with each rifle set-up and that 2000-B; to gain confidence in how far i can really shoot for a Western hunt in CO or WY.

reloads: hope to settle on a 140 or a 150 in the 280, and something between 165 to 200 in the RSAUM
Factory ammo: will stick to factory in the H&H... 180 Hornady, 185 Berger VLD from HSM, and Federal 180 TBT... whatever is most consistent.

next decision in the critical path is what scope for the 300 H&H

thanks in advance...

I’m going howa or vanguard in either clambering in whichever configuration offered the shortest barrel on either one. Weaver scope with mildot reticle (.25mildots) in Talley lightweights. Hornady precision hunter and enough of it to get dope to 600 and I’d go hunt. Mildot reticle because of its familiarly to my eyes, user friendliness in low light, my ability to range targets with it, and either cartridge will get to 600 using milholds from the reticle, I’m guessing either/ both would be in the 4.2-4.6 mils low at 600 ballpark, Additionally It’s Pretty/very easy to range targets in the mountains with a gps map and compass and since those weren’t excluded from the packing list...


A lot You guys with your milquads etc are all hot and bothered about matching turrets, which is great, and how easy they are to zero, which is great. But the ability to range a target is truly where it’s at. Having that protractor/ ruler that allows you to measure angles is so much more than just holds, or corrections. If holds and corrections were all we concerned with- moa reticle and turrets is fine, the disadvantage with moa is that while it’s an angle measurement just as mils is and as such can be used to measure distance as well- because it’s not metric and all based on tenths, it’s very much more difficult for a brain dead like me to use...


The easiest most straightforward explanation I can give and hopefully someone more eloquent (I’m a demonstrator not an orator) can pick this up and tunnwith it.

Understanding that 1 mil subtends a meter @ 1000m or 1km, we can observe through our scope how many mils and fractions of mils a target of known dimensions subtends- and thereby establish a distance to it. So if your 1 meter target looks like a mil when it’s 1k away, if it’s twice that size it’s half that far. If it’s 3times that size it’s 1/3 as far. If it’s 4 times that size it’s a quarter of the way there.


It goes like this. Stalking through the timber I notice that the branches on the spruce up to about my waste are dead with no tips. Just sticks about 18” long justting our from the stem. Huh. I tire of the walk find a good place to sit and glass as the day begins to fade. I whip out my gps, map, and compass. With my map, I establish that the near side of the park I am glassing is about 400meters away, and that the far side is about 600. I spot a bull tucked up in the tree line and anticipate where he is likely to emerge. (We are going with the simplest math possible now for the sake of being straightforward)

I get in the prone- take up a prone e supported position on my ruck- locate the bull, breath a little and then- needing to refine my range to the bull I measure the hiefth of the dead spruce limbs (preestablished @1meter by environmental observation) and find that the live limbs start 2 mils up the tree. The bull is 500meters out and I’m holding on the 3rd mildot, good night Irene.

David

Seems like you’d better bring you’re rangefinder Dave.

Here’s another one. Pull out gps map compass and protractor. Plot own position on map. Using compass shoot azimuth to animal meat. Plot that azimuth from your own position. Utilizing your eyeballs, ID the piece of terrain your quarry occupies. Plot that point in the azimuth. Measure the distance between them with a strait edge. Hold that up to the map scale. You have now established a range to your target.

Yes, I will Mr Mitty.

David

That sounds so much more convenient and accurate than pressing a button.



David

Given the constraints of the OP, which I understand have been relaxed, it seemed relevant that there are several ways to establish a range to a target, even when the cold has temporarily rendered your rangefinder useless, or the battery died, or you lost/forgot/broke it, or a guy says “no LRF in his op”


I bet my life the methods I have mentioned work to the degree with which they are accuralty applied by the practitioner. The same as an LRF will. But it’s not a big deal, I bring an LRF when I hunt. And in 30 years of hunting I haven’t shot any animals past 315 and only did that this year. I didn’t used to like to apply these techniques when I was hunting anaimals because it would really get some hate boiling in me which I didn’t like in the context. Now however I just enjoy excercising my brain by working to apply and thereby retain pretty much any information I have left in there as it’s going quickly otherwise.


Edit: this post reads like I’m housebound old guy or something
In that context it’s Probably my best campfire post to date. But the detail oriented reader will note the use of the word “apply”

So you've never actually used the techniques/methods you're advocating for taking game?

Likewise you don't know what a pocket is or how to use one?

David

I can’t match wits with you, man. At all. But on Thanksgiving Day, I took a little time to throw up some personally fieldtested and completely legitimate and valid info, With which guys who are interested can expand there skill set and there abilities on the ground.

Making me look dumb is no task, enjoy yourself at it, but the fact that I have a hard time communicating the information in this venue does nothing to it’s validity
Invalidating the information I’ve posted is not possible.

175rltw, i like your thought process of how to improvise and estimate in the woods when Murphy appears... it helps to have thought thru some of that stuff in advance...

now i want you to go back to Benning Phase and blindfold yourself and then take out the compass and tell me how many clicks to set a 102 degree azimuth in the dark. (evil grin)

Class 2-79

Talk about back when it was hard... dam. I was about to turn 1.

I got to 1st bat in September 03 and went to school a year later and went straight through 11-04 to become a tab spec 4.

You may or not be aware, but as per SOP my class was the last hard class. You probably thought it was 7-79, but alas. Mine wass the last hard class

Knowing how to use a reticle to range, and that range being even remotely close enough to be consistent enough past 300’ish meters- are two completely separate things.


Milling live targets that vary in size, presentation, and angle is nowhere near milling an E-Type. Just as with humans, the range practice of known, unchanging target size gives vastly unrealistic expectations of ability in the field on real targets, that are an unknown size, and aren’t facing perpendicular.


I’ve had instructors from every single military sniper school/course and national level competitors and not one has been able to consistently mil deer, elk, antelope, etc. accurately enough past 350-400 yards to be within 25 meters consistently. Not one.

I feel no need to challenge your assertions. I’d say that what you describe amongst competitor and instructors the case. There’s isn’t any sport that capitalized on the ability to effectively mil a distance. Instructors are focused on the specific skill sets that they t each and frequently display an overall lack of proficiency in areas other than there own subject matter- specifically that which they are responsible for teaching.

I will throw this out as well- assuming we misjudge our range by 50 yards at 600, leaving he realm of theory, I’ll talk about what load I know- my 7-08 is 3.6 low at 550 vs 4.2 at 600 a difference at that range of 18” or so that’s spine or bottom of lungs in an elk. At 400 yard and assuming only 25 error we have about 6” of possible error- not a big deal.

If you note in my actual example that I pitched I miled the range based on an environmental factor that was easily predetermined rahhree than the actual bull- again, this is real [bleep] but your proficiency at the task will mirror the effort put into training.

Agreed. A good skill to have and understand, but of very limited practicality in the real world, due to a lack of resolving precision when measuring the object against the reticle (a misjudgement of 0.1 MRAD matters), as well as excessive variation in actual visible target size. It’s also often impractical to get into a solid enough position for long enough to measure the target with the reticle, with the degree of precision necessary- simple prone off a ruck is insufficient for anything beyond a few hundred meters on a deer/elk chest sized target.

A very good last, last resort, but a poor substitute for a capable LRF.

18” low or high is spine or bottom of lungs...? What about the 50% of the rounds that hit above or below your aim point?





So how do you know that the spruce limb your measuring is 18” and not 19”? Or 16, or 20, etc?


The answer is- you don’t. You don’t know if the buck you’re looking at has an 18” deep chest or a 16.5”. Or a 19”. Or anything between. Considering that the apparent size from back to brisket on a deer varies almost two inches just due to condition of their coat.....



As for your thoughts on instructors, this ain’t a measuring contest, however, I’ve/we’ve had multiple individuals that were current slotted snipers from your prior organizatio, and they couldn’t do any better. When I say that no one can consistently be within 25, and usually not even within 50 meters of the actual range on live targets- I’m not guessing. The reason is simple- you can’t know how big your target is. The same exact deer can and will vary over two inches from September to December. And they don’t all lose or gain size consistently.


I’ll be at Quantico in the next month. I’ll get instructors, students, and slotted snipers to measure deer on the unknown ranges. They will be lucky to be within 25m, 50% of the time. Usually it’s 50m, 50% of the time at best on live targets.

Is it me, or is life a lot easier inside the 300 yard line?

Nah, it’s simple...Grin 😎

Form- no contest but this is measuring- for serious. Now listen If those deer changed size like that while I was trying to shoot it would be tough- or If i had to look at them in September but range them in December. That’d be a trick. But whatever size they are is irrelevant when we are working of environmental factors that give us a little better control. Yes we are Still dealing with range estimation- but at some point your margin for error drops below that threshold where it becomes smaller than the kill zone.

The point I make about picking something environment that is widespread and consistent rather than an animal that a livestock judge might not know what to make of- ie browslines, how high the spruce decline starts, how high the hawthorn,devils club,bitterbrush,sagebrush etc are- and using those as your references is all about reducing that margin of error- which you know and don’t need me to do xplain but are making me anyway. At 600yards a 30 yard error on your range call will still be within 8-10” of your poa with almost anything. Which you know.

I know your not guessing about guys abilities to range live deer cold on the spot with a mil reticle- but those same fellas- and you, and me, can all range effectively in an environment that offers more objects of known size ie vehicles. Trained task.

For everyone else who has mil reticle and LRF you can mess with rhis anytime your out. Hey
It’s easy to practice and verify your results with your rangefinder. A lot of times there’s not much else to do while your out. If guys can go cold on live deer and come up with only a 5-10 percent error, imagine how well they would do after 2
Weeks practicing. Happy Thanksgiving Boudreaux.

If anyone is worried that familiarity born of practice with the technique will make you a less effective hunter- I say avoid it.

This set-up or something very close to it!! IMHO you can't go wrong with the 30-06.

grin, life is easier inside 300 yards

I hope you have good hunting boots.

I vote for a Ruger Hawkeye in 30-06 loaded with 168TTSX with a Leupold 6x

This is the KISS set up.

Regardless of all the recommendations, when the right rig is in YOUR hands, you know it. Warm and fuzzy matters...

No contest. I'll take my Ruger MKII stainless/boat-paddle (skeletonized stock) .30-06. Burris Fullfield II with Ballistic Plex reticle, which is what it currently wears.

Range finder or no, same choice.

LOL.

That's whole lot of fail to pack into one post.

Congrats.