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Joined: Mar 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2006
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You will never say, Damn, if I just had a little less....things would have turned out better.
As a hunting partner and guide, I have seen just that situation many times when the shooter was subconsciously afraid of his gun and made a less-than-perfect shot as a result.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,177 Likes: 20
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,177 Likes: 20 |
What Jordan said.
Have guided some for elk myself, both bow and rifle. Placement and penetration counts a LOT more than "power," however power is defined. Though have often found hunters rate a cartridge's power by how much it hurts them.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,859
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2015
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Take a big enough and flat enough shooting cartridge, that will match the longest shot possible where you will be hunting, and allow you to make a clean kill.
"He is far from Stupid"
”person, who happens to have an above-average level of intelligence”
– DocRocket (In reference to ElkSlayer91)
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,758
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
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Tha factory ammunition nowadays are like the garanimal clothes marketed for kids.
There will be pictures of animals on the boxes of cartridges.
Buy the box of ammo with a picture Cervus canadensis on it.............money.
Generally you would like in cup and core bullets a sectional density of about .25 or greater. Sectional density is a predictive value of penetration.
You would also look for 2 foot pounds of energy at point of impact. Cup and core bullets use both hemorrhage and " Shock" to harvest. So a 700 pound Cervus canadensis would require 1400 foot pounds at point of impact.
Bore would most likely be .25 or greater. Just a guess. I am sure a .243 will suffice.
Monolithic bullets require less sectional density perhaps as low as .200 They penetrate more due to keeping their original mass during the path through the animal.
Less foot pounds of energy also is suggested for the monolithic.. Because they maintain mass, they do not loose energy as easily, and depend on hemmorage more than " shock." To harvest.
But velocity to allow the monolithic to " open up" is most likely desired. Opening up makes a petaled almost arrow like broad head projectile moving through the animal. At or around a minimum 1800 fps at point of impact is what most monolithic bullets are published as needing to work to my knowledge.
I also believe monolithic bullet guidelines suggest a .25 caliber or greater also. ( But just a guess)
Certainly these guidelines like any law is meant 2 b broken.
Certainly shot placement trumps speed or power.
Last edited by Angus1895; 10/08/18.
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
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Joined: May 2017
Posts: 4,928 Likes: 3
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2017
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I'm confident that anything I own from the .257 Roberts on up would be sufficient with the right bullet, range, situation, etc. If I had unlimited time to hunt and weeks of opportunity to get the right shot, I'd probably use my .257 Roberts or 6.5 Somethingorother that I don't own or my .308 Win. Since that is not the case and often times my one and only elk opportunity happens at a fleeting moment with a poor angle, in the wind, at a longer range, or near a property boundary; I'm likely to use my 7mm Weatherby or .300 Weatherby, both of which I shoot well with confidence. I'll never have to second guess myself as to whether I brought enough gun. That said, poor marksmanship is seldom overcome with a bigger rifle. Happy Trails
Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
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My wife’s first elk (1974), was with a .243 Win. Her thoughts were .....more luck than skill. The next year she graduated to to a .270 Win., which she used until 1995. She then got her “Masters Degree”, by moving up to a .338 WM. She has “zero” desire to “go back in time”! memtb
Last edited by memtb; 10/09/18.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,998 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,998 Likes: 3 |
The use of 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, 7.62mm, etc., on elk means a great deal less today as bullet technology has advanced the capabilities of all cartridges greatly. Very true! memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,998 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,998 Likes: 3 |
Tha factory ammunition nowadays are like the garanimal clothes marketed for kids.
There will be pictures of animals on the boxes of cartridges.
Buy the box of ammo with a picture Cervus canadensis on it.............money.
Generally you would like in cup and core bullets a sectional density of about .25 or greater. Sectional density is a predictive value of penetration.
You would also look for 2 foot pounds of energy at point of impact. Cup and core bullets use both hemorrhage and " Shock" to harvest. So a 700 pound Cervus canadensis would require 1400 foot pounds at point of impact.
Bore would most likely be .25 or greater. Just a guess. I am sure a .243 will suffice.
Monolithic bullets require less sectional density perhaps as low as .200 They penetrate more due to keeping their original mass during the path through the animal.
Less foot pounds of energy also is suggested for the monolithic.. Because they maintain mass, they do not loose energy as easily, and depend on hemmorage more than " shock." To harvest.
But velocity to allow the monolithic to " open up" is most likely desired. Opening up makes a petaled almost arrow like broad head projectile moving through the animal. At or around a minimum 1800 fps at point of impact is what most monolithic bullets are published as needing to work to my knowledge.
I also believe monolithic bullet guidelines suggest a .25 caliber or greater also. ( But just a guess)
Certainly these guidelines like any law is meant 2 b broken.
Certainly shot placement trumps speed or power. The pictures are there to help guide the potential hunter....however, I personally know some people that apparently are still confused even with pictures. Maybe “grail” is the logical next step for the ammo manufactures! memtb
Last edited by memtb; 10/09/18.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,544 Likes: 4
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,544 Likes: 4 |
The pictures are there to help guide the potential hunter....however, I personally know some people that apparently are still confused even with pictures. Maybe “grail” is the logical next step for the ammo manufactures! memtb
My .340 Wby ammo came in a box with a picture of a giant 25-foot-long presumably-prehistoric armadillo battling an almost equally-sized mutant opossum next to a lagoon with several purple dolphins watching the action. I wasn’t sure what to make of that.
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 24,632 Likes: 30 |
You will never say, Damn, if I just had a little less....things would have turned out better.
As a hunting partner and guide, I have seen just that situation many times when the shooter was subconsciously afraid of his gun and made a less-than-perfect shot as a result. As a guide and hunter, I have also seen plenty of flinching with a 243 and 22-250. The real test is to have them check their rifle before hunting, then hand it to them with an empty chamber and watch what happens...
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,998 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,998 Likes: 3 |
Good point! Maybe pictures are “not” the answer for suggested game! Maybe it was the “color” images that add to the confusion! memtb
Last edited by memtb; 10/09/18.
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,882 Likes: 10
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,882 Likes: 10 |
How does the probability of a hunter being scared of his 270 Win. compare to the probability of a hunter being scared of his 300 or 338 Win. magnum?
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 30,291 Likes: 2 |
How does the probability of a hunter being scared of his 270 Win. compare to the probability of a hunter being scared of his 300 or 338 Win. magnum? Quit bringing logic to the conversation... all that's needed here is raw emotion and non-empirical biases.
“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
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Shrapnel, that’s a great training procedure for folks having “flinch issues”! Reduced my son’s ( he was about 14 at the time), by about 50%....in one shot (actually “no” shot). I told him he was “flinching”, which he “adamantly” denied. The major flinch on an empty chamber, was extremely embarrassing and enlightening, to a young man. memtb
You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." -Bob Hagel
“I’d like to be a good rifleman…..but, I prefer to be a good hunter”! memtb 2024
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 7,758
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2013
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I totally agree with shrapnel!
I had a friend tell me that on the range they would put a coin on top of the action.
A friend would hand him a cartridge, sometimes it would be a dummy round. If the coin fell off the rifle after he pulled the trigger and the gun would not fire, it would be a good sign of a unsmooth trigger event.
As a sarcastic side note......I often live in fear of the wife.
But to fear a firearm? They ain't gonna take half!
Like Cramer says on Mad Money. Sell, sell,sell!
"Shoot low sheriff, I think he's riding a shetland!" B. Wills
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,743
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,743 |
I know a few fellows who use the .243, 6mm Remington and .240W all the time. Some have taken huge bulls. I'm of the 6.5/284, 6.5/06, .270 ( I put a properly loaded 7x57 in this class too) crowd with good bullets for minimum. I much prefer my 338 WM. I have used the Barnes 185XLC with perfect results. I like the 210xbt in 340W and would use the 270 TSX in the old 375 H&H today. ( I used the Sierra 300 sbt on a cow elk, it was very destructive. Shot a lot of game in South Africa with the old 270 FailSafe with perfect results.)
Last edited by Jim_Knight; 10/09/18.
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
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I've shot far less elk than some here, mostly because drawing tag here in AZ literally take an act of God. Finally said to hell with it and do a cow elk cull hunt on a ranch in New Mexico. I've taken one elk with a .300 Win. mag, one with a 30-06 and six with a .35 Whelen. I'd probably try my 7x57 given a reasonably decent shot but on the ranch, draw blood and it's yours, win or lose. So usually I take the 06 as back up and use the .35 Whelen. I prefer to hunt cow elk.Mostly because they taste better and second, there's no place in my home with a high enough ceiling to hang the head of a decent bull elk. Paul B.
Our forefathers did not politely protest the British.They did not vote them out of office, nor did they impeach the king,march on the capitol or ask permission for their rights. ----------------They just shot them. MOLON LABE
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 3,743
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2016
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I've taken nothing but cows PJ! I really like the late season hunts on private ranchs....much less people and snow everywhere!
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,888 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,888 Likes: 6 |
You will never say, Damn, if I just had a little less....things would have turned out better.
As a hunting partner and guide, I have seen just that situation many times when the shooter was subconsciously afraid of his gun and made a less-than-perfect shot as a result. Don't skip the part that says, "consider recoil/rifle weight.....be brutally honest with yourself". My 300 Win. isn't very heavy. It is the top of my recoil tolerance, probably too much. If I didn't mind weight/recoil, a big 338 would be my "The one." But, I know my limitations. It just does not make sense to intentionally ever choose the tool that is taxed for the job. I will always want more truck than I need, buy a heavier duty hand tool......reserve ability is never bad.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,901 Likes: 1 |
You will never say, Damn, if I just had a little less....things would have turned out better.
As a hunting partner and guide, I have seen just that situation many times when the shooter was subconsciously afraid of his gun and made a less-than-perfect shot as a result. Don't skip the part that says, "consider recoil/rifle weight.....be brutally honest with yourself". My 300 Win. isn't very heavy. It is the top of my recoil tolerance, probably too much. If I didn't mind weight/recoil, a big 338 would be my "The one." But, I know my limitations. It just does not make sense to intentionally ever choose the tool that is taxed for the job. I will always want more truck than I need, buy a heavier duty hand tool......reserve ability is never bad. The same applies to recoil. It just does not make sense to intentionally choose the tool that taxes your ability to use it to maximum affect, in other words a gun that kicks too much to consistently make proper hits. Just like I don't use a 32 ounce framing hammer and prematurely wear myself out, I don't use a rifle that kicks too hard to shoot well.
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