Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .22 RF alternatives

Wonderful things are happening here.

Oh Lord, forgive me. I have opened dialog with Vista Outdoors and CCI out in Lewiston. CCI asked for a proposal. -snicker giggle-

And I sent one to Ruger as well.

Determined Dan

I hope you have a good out come with this under taking

Fascinating to read about your experiments and impressed by your determination.

Best wishes for commercial success . . . although it sure looks like a winner from here, we can never tell what will happen when you turn a good idea loose.

Thanks for your clarity and imagination and sharing it with us.

Jumpin' Jehosaphat,

The winds of change are a blowin'

In a centerfire direction.

Geno

Thanks Dan , I got the package.

I have some ideas I will try on the mould end, venting can be a real issue with consistency, I will be in touch on the size issues, but I think I can cure them, its just going to take some trial and error, and temperature control.
Thanks again.

You're welcome, and good luck. Give a ring if you have questions. Alloy of the bullets you have is roughly 75% lead and 25% wheel weight with 8oz tin in a 20# pot. BHN around 9 give or take.

Brief update: My hero Steve Brooks has his hands full and apparently that is his normal MO. The mould upgrade is on hold and we may or may not get back to that as appropriate. Part of the issue goes to my own affairs, and a very small part to his own. After discussion it is apparent that we have both been on the education wagon with this project and I have to admit that realization made me smile a bit. Please don't think for a second I'm being critical of Steve, for I am not. I have 4 of his moulds including the one for this project and I've nothing but the highest regard for his work.





I'm going to step outside the box a little and order some brass from RCC with intent to explore the high velocity realm. Conversation with Jimy suggest there are options on the plate for the bullet dims etc and we will explore that in the near future. An idea of my own would be the use of a hammer swage die that would utilize the slightly imperfect cast bullets as slugs and render them unto jewels that would make Quigley smile. Won't take but a couple of mild taps with a hammer to do that.

Oh, nearly forgot. I ran out of bullets so last week was a casting flurry that churned out something around 450 or so. Walking down to the house from the range today and saw a squirrel make an obscene gesture that was directed at yours truly.

Instead of pounding the swage why not use a small arbor press?

My backyard squirrels love me. Could be the peanuts I put out for them, could be the chipmunk hookers I provide them, dunno. I had been shooting the buggers but it seemed the more I killed the more there were, so I surrendered and now I'm God to the little SOB's.

I dunno? Any idea was force an arbor press can generate, as in PSI?

Depends on the arbor press- length of operating lever mostly. Even a small bench top model can generate tons of pressure.

Might work, I don't know. Hammer swage dies are simple, direct and can generate 70 KPSI or more. Little tap will work on this one if the internal dims are correct, no question about it.



3 bullets on the right below were so formed. Shorty is a .50 caliber of 490 gr used for a picket rifle. 2 piece bullet next to it is .50 cal 850 grains, .and the far right is a .56 caliber of 900 grains. The concept makes some remarkable high quality bullets.

I guess I"m a little late to the party.

I wasn't aware of this project until pretty recently, and I'm interested, especially as I've been working on something similar.

The .22 ladybug was my answer to whatever the question was that I was asking at the time. For me the outcome was based on practicality of making the brass. I started using hornet brass, but when I got to the final dimensions, I realized that .25 ACP brass could be used with less trimming and work.

Sadly my project hasn't had the time dedicated to it that I'd like, but I've had good results with the limited work I've done.

The finished design next to a LR round



So far I have 2 rifles in the caliber, a 16.25" Contender (easiest conversion ever!) and a 24" H&A falling block. All accuracy and velocity testing has been through the contender.




Case capacity is fairly low at avg 3.91 grains water capacity. As a result, powder charges are low. I'm currently experimenting with titegroup powder, as it's very conducive to the small capacity and bore of the cartridge. 1.1 grains of TG is pushing a 40 grain cast bullet (BHN 12-13) tumble lubed with 45-45-10 to velocities of 940 FPS avg. (keeping it subsonic for suppressor use).

The first 10 shot (offhand) group at 25 yards with that load:


I've pushed the same bullet as high as 1600 FPS, but at those velocities, the accuracy was terrible and it loosened the primer pockets in the brass and stuck brass in the chamber. Loads up to about 1250 FPS remain accurate and show no pressure signs. This is intended as a .22lr replacement anyways, so keeping things below about 1250 doesn't give up anything on the desired goals of the cartridge.

I've also tested a light bullet through the gun... [color:"#800080"]you know, for the recoil sensitive[/color]... at 20 grains, the same 1.1 grain TG load pushes it close to 1300 FPS, but maintains accuracy.





I've also messed with shorter versions of the case


From L-R Ladybug repeater at .625", the same at .500" and then .400".

One of the main reasons I reduced the rim diameter from that of the 25 ACP was to enable feeding through magazines. I haven't finished converting the rifle yet, but the round feeds okay through the magazine of the Remington 581.

After some additional work, I'm now the proud owner of a S&W K frame in .22 ladybug.



It works well, Caught this little bugger climbing out of a hole he or his compatriots had chewed in my siding, nailed him when I had the clear shot.



I need to do more load work for both the long guns and the revolver, but I've been having fun, and seeing good results.

As for brass life, I've been tracking the load life on the original 10 cases I made, and I'm well over 100 loads on them with only 2 losses (dropped one in the grass, never found it, and one split case mouth)

Did a little testing this morning,

I only had enough ammo loaded up to shoot 8 groups, but I was pretty pleased that including fliers, I still didn't have a group over 3/4"CTC at 50 yards.



They're all the same load, which has proven to be pretty good. I'll work on other loads in the not too distant future, but consistency is a big part of what I want from the gun and cartridge, so the largest groups it shoots are as important to me as the smallest.

Glad to see I'm not the only one in hot pursuit of this, truly!

Thanks for the effort and the posting of information. I just placed an order with RCC for some additional brass to explore the higher velocity realm. If you could expand a little for us, what are the final dims for your brass and the bullet as well.

Thanks,

Dan

Thanks Dan! I wish I'd heard out your project earlier, we probably could have shared notes!

My final case dimensions are .625 length, straight no taper case diameter of .247-.248 and a rim diameter of .275-.278 and rim thickness of .043. The rim is dimensionally interchangeable with the .22LR rim, and the extractor relief above the rim is at .228 diameter. I may end up beveling the front of the rim slightly to help rim release in repeaters, at the moment it can be a little sticky depending on feed angle. Average case capacity is 3.91 grains of water. I made or modified most of the tools to make the brass and load the cartridge myself, and if there's any interest, I'd be happy to share photos of them, though they're pretty utilitarian and ugly for the most part.

I've been loading 1.1 grains of titegroup under an ideal 224107 bullet at 37 grains sized .2245 running without a gas check for average velocities of 940 FPS from the 16.25" contender barrel. The powder burns faster than a lot of RF powders apparently, and has reduced uncorking pressure compared to many subsonic .22 loads, meaning even without the suppressor it's pretty quiet, and with the can, it's so quiet I've shot it out of the window while doing teleconferences on speaker phone and no-one noticed.

I've made up some super prepped brass as well, using reamers to control the powder capacity and bullet seating depth down to the tightest tolerences I can measure. I prep the brass after it's been fired, and so far I only haven't had to resize any of it. The inside is reamed to accept the .224 diameter section of the bullet to a specific depth with only thumb seating pressure, similar to the old "everlasting" cartridges. I haven't tried them in the revolver yet, but the recoil is low enough I'm hoping they won't shift forward in the cylinder when the gun is fired, though that remains to be seen. In the contender, I've been seeing ES's in the single digits with the prepped brass and weight sorted bullets.

I'm very interested in seeing your results with the RCC brass, I believe they lathe turn everything on Swiss screw machines correct? What velocities are you hoping to achieve? Would you mind sharing what the cost of brass is likely to be?

I'm sure it's been mentioned, but what's the finished diameter of the heel on your bullet, and will that requirement be effected by the RCC brass?

NZ,
Great job on the Smith. Mine in 22lr is one of my favorites. If 22lr dried up I know now I can come up with an answer to keep something similar running.
Thanks for posting to this.