Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Thinking of a .338-06

I have a 30-06 in the safe destined to be a 338-06. Mine is a Montana Rifle Co rifle and I want it to weigh 8 lbs all up. Recoil in an 84L, even with heavier barrel contour and 20 oz SHV (G) will be stout with max loads.

I'd like to know how yours turns out - love the Montana platform.

Looks like it might work, but the OAL might need to be trimmed. Specs for the .280 AI show a case length of 2.525", while the case length of cases fired in my rifle runs 2.511".

My rifle is actually chambered for the .338 Howell, and the parent cartridge is the .280 Remington. When I received the rifle from Ken, he gave me some Lake City .30-06 brass that had been fire-formed in the rifle and resized in the RCBS dies, but the chamber was a little tight. After consulting with my gunsmith, I took his suggestion and just fire formed factory Norma .338-06 brass in my chamber. It has worked fine for me, and the head stamp is "more correct" .

BTW: look at the 210 gr Swift Scirocco II for your peeshooter.

The 338-06 A-Square is the same thing as 338-06.A-Square is who made it a factory cartridge.

szihn - How close would you rate the 338 Federal to the 338-06 for elk-moose-bear. Would the 338 Federal do well in a 20/21 inch barrel in your opinion? Would you say the 8x57 loaded to the european ammo standards closer to the 338 Federal or the 338-06 (or to neither)? I always considered all would fall in the 338 WM area but in a closer range. I think this - but I don't have experience to back it up and thus thinking out load here.

Anybody wanting to do a Kimber rechamber I have a 30-06 barrel off an 84L sale or trade.Just FYI

Nope.

Quit thinking and do it Smoke, I bought a rusted bore pre-64 270 WCF, chit factory stock to boot, bought a Pacific Research stock from Jorge, sent the rifle to JES for a re-bore and chamber to 338-06, $825 bucks all up later I had a pinwheel 338-06 that fires 210 gr NPT's at 2800 fps with H-380, necked up W-W 30-06 brass is king, the rifle wears a 2.5-8 Leupold in dual dovetail rings and bases, may weigh 8lbs all up, a hell of a hunting rifle on the cheap.

I've read a lot of good about the 210 NPT's on these pages, I've never hit anything but a few deer and small pigs, the outcome is/was of no concern, 100% BOOM flops so far, it may even work on elk out to a long 400 yards, certainly light enough to pack up, across, and back down an elk mountain.

SierraHunter, your question is well founded and I am sure many other ask the same thing in their minds, but I believe most American shooters get focused on the ballistic energy, trajectories and cavitation of a specific rounds and seem to forget the real world that we'll carry the guns in.

What I mean by that is that the wound size of any round is measured in 2 basic factors. Penetration and cavitation. That's really all there is. "Shock" is a function of cavitation and the faster that cavity is made the greater the shock the bullet will deliver. (note: Great shock in the rear of the lungs will not be as effective as less shock in the mid lung and the top of the heart, so even that is a specter we'll chase for many years and never really get a grip on it 100%)

So when I am asked about the effectiveness of rounds, one to another, the 1st thing I would point out is the comparisons need to be made with identical bullets, or bullets as close to each other in weight and CONSTRUCTION as we can get for that comparison.

I have used the 8X57 to kill game with and it's a wonderful round. I have used the 338-06 as well as the 338 Win Mag (and many others too) and I have seen game killed with the 340 Weatherby, and the 338 Federal. I believe if we have any round that will give perfect penetration (meaning it gives us exits, 100% of the time) and a wound channel of at least 1.3" around, the game is going to die about the same from anything that makes that wound, if all wounds hit at the same angel and destroy the same organs and break the same bones.

Bullets don't kill and neither do cartridges or guns. Bullet holes kill!

So if we look at the same bullet going the same speed at impact the difference between a 340 Weatherby and a 338 Federal is the range you hit the game at. If for example we are looking at a 225 grain Nosler Partition impacting an elk or bear at about 2000 FPS the difference is that the game is shot with the Weatherby and at 450 yards and shot with the 338 Federal at 225 yards. The kill is going to be identical if the hits are. But in 8 out of 10 cases (my best guess) those hits are NOT identical.

You see, a precise hit at 225 is FAR easier to make then one at 450 yards. This is the one factor and is probably the most significant thing to focus on that everything else combined.

A 340 Weatherby shooter can be every bit as good a marksman and anyone else, but many times having velocity and power is a temptation to fire at game at longer ranges than you should or that you need to, and sometime farther then ethics would allow. The man who owns and loves his 338 Federal is a HUNTER and doesn't buy a rifle for that cartridge if he wants to shoot at 600-800 yards.

A precision marksman may want to shoot that far, (or farther) and will buy a faster cartridge, or one that fires skinnier bullet. .

So we don't hear many bad things bout the 8X57, the 338-06 the 338 Federal or even the 35 Whelen or 9.3X62---- and a whole lot of other shells....... because the men who love them use them at the ranges that they should be used and the effects on game is excellent. It would be just as good with a 340 Weatherby if you use a bullet that doesn't come apart, so you can insure the complete penetration I started this dialog with. But most who buy a 340 don't buy it for it's use at close range.

I have said in other posts and I'll repeat it here: The 2 cartridges I have seen more bad performance with then any other (maybe all others combined) are the 7MM Rem Mag and the 300 Winchester mag. Why? NOT BECAUSE THOSE 2 SHELLS ARE BAD! They are both excellent.
But many people seem to think 'long range' when they come out west to hunt and choose the wrong kind of bullet for the situation. They learn after about 5-10 hunts that long range out west is usually 2X farther then the shots they get in the east or mid-west, but not 6X to 8X farther. If you can make hits at 450 yards you could hunt 50 years out here and never be out of range if you have any hunting ability at all.

If you use a bullet that will get through to the other side in a relatively straight line, even if it hits bone (and preferably exit,) your gun and your cartridge is fine for your game.

But the higher the speed at impact the more important bullet construction is. A bullet that works well at 400 yards may blow up at 75 yards.
Conversely, if the impact speed is too low some very tough bullet fail to open up.
So as you can see, too far can mean a failure because the bullet fails to open and too close can make a bullet fail by blowing up.

So what is the ultimate answer?

After we strip away all the ballistic tables, theories, hype, "Gear-Queer marketing" and all that junk ..........we'll come back to the factor that is 98% of the issue. The hunter.

The idea that "I only have XXX many yards of range and so I need more" is something that I cannot argue against because in most cases it's driven by emotion, not logic.

Many hunters, myself included, have stepped away to some degree from rifles that can reach the next zip-code in favor of having the fun of hunting again. I have killed nearly all my game so far this year with iron sighted rifles and my shots have been under 200 yards. I still use scoped rifles for a lot of my hunting, but the thrill I get from using my flintlock, a stock revolver or an iron sighted gun that is about 100 years old sure makes the experience better for me. If shooting "way out there" is a thrill for you and IF YOU CAN MAKE KILL SHOTS 95% of the time or better, go for it. It should be fun. If it's not, why do it?

That brings me full circle. What do I think of the 338-06, 338 fed and the 8X57? A lot! But I never really tried to see them in competition one with another. They are all fine. You mentioned Moose .You mentioned bears. Black bears? I see no realistic difference.

Grizzlies? Ok, now I'd go with the one that shoots the heaviest bullet, sop of those 3 I'd take the 338-06. Why? Because I have been very close to Grizzlies a number of times and they are very scary, and I like having the largest club I can in those times. My 404 Jeffery is none too big at times like that.

I killed a nice bull with my 8X57 3 years ago and the bullets I used were not "fine' for the purpose, (170 Gr Hornady SST) so I will not use them again on elk. I killed the bull, but the bullets came apart and under a different set of circumstances I may have had to track it longer then I'd like. But with the 200 Grain Nosler Partition or the 180 grain Hornady GMX the 8X57 is as good a round as I could want for any hunting in N. America except maybe Grizzlies and Buffalo. Not that it's not up to the task, I am sure it is, but my 9.3s, my 375H&H and my 404 are all more powerful, so I'd choose one of them instead for those 2 animals. But with a proper bullet I feel as well armed for elk with an 8MM Mauser as I do with my 375H&H.

I have killed elk with various 338s in the past. Both 338 mags and 338-06s
Bullets used were the 210 Nosler partition (excellent) in both 338 Mag and in 338-06
225 grain Hornady Spire Point (came apart, fragmented and didn't go very deep) also in both 338 mag and 338-06
250 grain Hornady Round Nose (weird. 2 were excellent with good cavitation and penetration. But one exploded and went only about 8" deep breaking the spine and stopping. The empty jacket was laying against the bone. I killed the animal with a revolver shot to the head)
250 grain Nosler Partition (excellent) 338-06 on elk and 338 Mag on a few cattle.
275 Grain Speer. In my 338-06. One of the fastest kills I ever saw. Bullet hit mid-body and exited the neck about 8" in front of the chest. Elk was "gone" when I came out of recoil. Laying dead in the grass, and fell so fast I didn't see it fall.

I have seen a few others.
340 Weatherby with a Sierra 250 grain (excellent kill but the bullet turned about 45 degree and came out through the paunch. even though the hit was well forward and broadside) That bull humped up like a bronc bucking, and fell when it came back down.
338-06 used by 3 friends, used at 6 different hunts to kill elk and deer, all of which were guns I made.
I remember one was using a 180 gr Barnes X and that load was outstanding on both deer and elk. One was using a 200 grain Speer on a deer and the exit was large and dramatic, with red spray all over the trees behind the deer. One was with a 250 grain Nosler and it was excellent with about 3 seconds of staggering after the shot and then it fell.

The other kills I can remember fairly well, but I don't remember the details of the ammo now. I am sure I was told, but I have forgotten now.

338 Federal:
3 kills. One with a factory load. Seemed to be just fine. Don't remember the bullet but the kill was a cow elk at about 80 yards. Shot was good. elk ran about 25 yards and got "rubber legs" then fell. She was dead when we go to her.
Another was shot with a Barnex X 185 grain. Nice bull hit quartering away. Hit was good and the elk was moving as my buddy shot. Lost sight of the bull and we went to the spot the hit was made. Blood all over the place. A blind man could have followed it. The elk went about 80 yards down the hill and fell. Hit was about 1/3 up from the bottom of the chest and came out in front of the left shoulder.
Last one was about 285 yards from my hunter (different guy) with the same Barnes bullet. Facing us. Shot hit the neck at the juncture with the body and the elk just dropped. No exit. I fished through the gut pile but never found it. Bullet clipped the spine and angled down into the rear of the guts.

The same man I just described used the same gun and load to kill 3 antelope at over 300 yards, but I was not with him on any of those hunts so I can only say what I was told. All were good hits and all were quick kills but only one dropped at the shot. He also put down a sick horse with that gun and the bullet exited, dropping the horse.

So is the 338-06 or the 338 Federal any "better" then a 30-06 with a 220 grain for elk hunting?
I could not say because the 30-06 with the 220 grain load is also outstanding.
But I would say it's probably not any worse either.

If you like it, use it, and use it a LOT so you get good with it. When YOU are a good hunter and a good marksman it matters a lot less what you carry. Personally I think ammo is more important then rifles. I LIKE rifles so I don't get "married" to one round. If I use a bullet that holds together I feel just as good hunting elk in the trees with my iron sighted 9.3X57 as I do with my scoped 30-06 or my scoped 270. I feel better after the kill however with the iron sighted rifle handgun or flintlock. It REALLY feels good to make those kills on the open country and know you stalked up to shooting range.
Others disagree. They are not "wrong" and I may not be "right". It's just what I like to use.

Arguing one way or another is like arguing over what taste better, buttered lobster or a good grilled hamburger. "Right and wrong" are not things you can win that argument with.

I used a .338-06 to shoot my first elk in 1991. In load development, the 225 gr. Hornady shot so accurately, I never tried another bullet and don't recall using powders other than IMR4320 and IMR4064. I loaded to muzzle velocities of around 2600 fps or so. This was an intriguing cartridge for a while, but I lost interest in it after a few years.

As someone has already mentioned, there is probably no practical field difference between the .338-06 and a .30-06 with a heavy bullet. Nowadays, I'll take the -'06. But, practical is often boring. You'll enjoy the .338-06.

szihn - I really want to thank you for a thorough and detailed answer to my question. Your response was perfect in my opinion. Again, thanks!

I built a 338-06 Imp on a Model 70 stainless classic. 23" #3 Lilja barrel with a 12 twist, per Dan Lilja's recommendation. Rimrock stock and Leupold 2-5 - 8. Came out at 8# 1 oz. Great rifle. I would go with a 10 twist if I were to do it again. Shoots lighter bullets like the 200 Accubond and 210 Partition into cloverleafs. Heavier (longer) bullets open up to an inch or so at 100 - Good enough for what it is for. It will push 200's to 2900 and 210's to 2825 without straining things too much and is relatively gentle on the shoulder.

SZIHN pretty much tells it like it is......he is always a great read.

200, 210 or 215. Medium powder like Re-15. Oh yeah.

While not a 6.5 CM certainly, I still don't find my Kimber 84L 338-06 overly terrible on recoil. Even with 24 oz of scope rings and rail on it with a 3-9X42 SWFA its still 6.75 pounds all up. I cut the barrel down to 21" and it still flings 210s the same speed a 30-06 with 24" barrel flings 180s. 4+1 with 210 sciroccos at 2800+ fps it is a lot of firepower in a short handy package. I much prefer it to my 338 WM and 375 HH.



Does it do anything a 30-06 won't do?? Meh not really. But I have never owned a 30-06 and don't intend to start anytime soon.

I had one for a while and came to the same conclusion. Mine was a re-barreled Interarms MK-X in a Brown Precision stock. Several prominent gunwrter's including Finn Aagard tested the 338-06 as well as the 35 Whelen and concluded that 30-06 loaded heavy gave better penetration.

How much difference does .338" make vs .308"? Wrap one layer of masking tape around a 30 caliber bullet and it is now 33 caliber. Twice around and you have 35 caliber.

But it is a cool round that is different. Especially if you enjoy getting kicked harder for less performance.

I agree 100% with szihn. Another way of conveying his point on velocity - distance - cartridge/bullet is to say a 308 win shooting identical bullets as a 30-06 is basically saying the 308 is a 30-06 100 yards farther away. I'm also agree with statements on eastern hunters headed west. I was as guilty as anyone, thinking I needed to be able to shoot out to 5-6-700 yards. I've killed 10-11 elk now and the farthest has been 250 yards. I've shot most of them still hunting the timber - I love still hunting elk in the timber. Bottom line - I don't need a magnum to shoot elk at 50 yards. This year's elk was shot at 50 feet.

Yes it is. The 338-06 A-Square is the exact same cartridge as the standard 338-06 wildcat cartridge that has been loaded for years. The A-Square Company was the one to have the cartridge commercialized and the standard dimensions set so therefore they felt that the had the right to call it theirs and therefore introduced it as the 338-06 A-Square even though it was not different.

Where the confusion comes in is that A-Square also introduced a 338 A-Square which is something totally different but is sometimes confused with the 338-06 A-Square, but one is base on the 30--06 case and one is not.

Confusing as mud?

Less performance? Define performance. "Penetration" is just one aspect of terminal perfromance, in one dimension.

If penetration was the be-all end-all of terminal perfromance we'd all be shooting FMJ non-expanding bullets. The other part of the equation which is just as important if not more is the diameter of the wound channel and a larger diameter bullet makes a larger diameter hole, period. If you have two bullets of identical weight, (say 225 grains) with one out of a .30-06 and the other out of a .338-06 the only thing that would cause the .30 caliber bullet to penetrate further is a smaller wound channel. And "more penetration" becomes meaningless at the point where the bullet exits the animal in terms of the work/damage being done. If you want to equal .338 performance out of a .30-06 bore you need to use similar weight bullets, or "load heavy" in the .30-06.

Which brings us to "getting kicked harder?" If you're using bullets of the same weight, recoil is going to be the same, that's simple physics. And velocity out of the larger bore will be slightly better. And with the .338 bore you have the option to go heaveir than you can with the .30-06, if you want to.

Last, using the "wrap a layer of masking tape arpound the bullet," logic, you could say the .30-06 is no better than the .270 or .280. Or the .375 is no better than the .338. And so on and so forth.

Smokepole got it right