About a decade ago Remington made some 16 ga. 870 express shotguns. When Remington discontinued them the local Gander Mountain discounted the ones they had to get rid of them. I picked one up new for $170. Try looking for one of these, but beware. My came with a modified choke tube, and I was able to find a full, but never have found and I/C.
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Which "Sweet 16" are you talking about? The original John Browning design or the new abomination under that name? If the former then there aren't many options as the old A-5s tend to run $450-$800 depending on condition, features, and seller. The "new" A-5 is not something I am interested in and have had only a very cursory look at. The only other semi-autos I am familiar with are the Remington Model 11 (a version of the A-5), the Remington 1100, and the Winchester 1400. Other than maybe the 1100 they should run less than a comparable A-5. The Winchester and 1100 were built on 12 ga frames so would be roughly the weight of a 12 ga and the M-11 is virtually indistinguishable from the A-5.
There are mighty few 16 ga O/Us and I can't think of an O/U I would recommend that regularly falls in that price range. I have a Citori that I picked up back in 1987 and there have been a dearth of options other than that. Baikal had one I believe but they were pretty rough. Huglu/CZ might have also had one but I'm not sure. One might find one of these on the used rack but I don't think much of them.
Your buddy's options are pretty limited in 16 ga and are even more limited if restricted to just semiautos and O/Us.
Not much new out there on a small frame. Unless you spend big bucks. Maybe an older 870 or Ithaca 37 ? The Cz Bobwhite looks ok. I have a Rem Model 11 , 870, and a Nice Spanish made Noble SxS.
Which "Sweet 16" are you talking about? The original John Browning design or the new abomination under that name? If the former then there aren't many options as the old A-5s tend to run $450-$800 depending on condition, features, and seller. The "new" A-5 is not something I am interested in and have had only a very cursory look at. The only other semi-autos I am familiar with are the Remington Model 11 (a version of the A-5), the Remington 1100, and the Winchester 1400. Other than maybe the 1100 they should run less than a comparable A-5. The Winchester and 1100 were built on 12 ga frames so would be roughly the weight of a 12 ga and the M-11 is virtually indistinguishable from the A-5.
There are mighty few 16 ga O/Us and I can't think of an O/U I would recommend that regularly falls in that price range. I have a Citori that I picked up back in 1987 and there have been a dearth of options other than that. Baikal had one I believe but they were pretty rough. Huglu/CZ might have also had one but I'm not sure. One might find one of these on the used rack but I don't think much of them.
Your buddy's options are pretty limited in 16 ga and are even more limited if restricted to just semiautos and O/Us.
Belgium Sweet 16. Vent Rib, Modified. When you find one under $1,000 please let me know
Not an O/U or semi, but I am a big fan of the Winchester Model 12 in 16 gauge. A 28" modified flat fore end variation is as good of an upland shotgun as you will find in my opinion. Well made, light weight and great handling with no noticeable difference in range compared to a 12 gauge. Also, m12s pattern really well with modern shotshells and are cost effective.
Not an O/U or semi, but I am a big fan of the Winchester Model 12 in 16 gauge. A 28" modified flat fore end variation is as good of an upland shotgun as you will find in my opinion. Well made, light weight and great handling with no noticeable difference in range compared to a 12 gauge. Also, m12s pattern really well with modern shotshells and are cost effective.
Find one with a solid rib and you will be set for anything. I had one in the late seventies and only sold it to pay bills after a car wreck. The 16ga. model 12's and other vintage pumps are almost as light as a 20 but hit like a 12. When you go back to a 12 after a 16 the gun and shells seem bloated ...
You might check out the Remington 11-48. They're the streamlined receiver recoil operated semi auto. They don't seem to get the love from collectors that the Sweet 16 does. I bet you can find one for around $300.
If they made the Model 12 16Ga again today, there wouldn't be enough knowledgeable re shotguns to keep it in production. They would rather buy some Turkish trash because it would be an O/U or SxS.
When I was 12 or 13 I begged my folks for a model 12 16 ga. with a 28 " mod. barrel for Christmas.. Needless to say it did not happen.. In a few years I bought a 12ga.. I have often thought if I would have received the 16, if I would have followed the 12 ga. trail... Never really owned a 16 ga.. I had a 16 in a m.12 with a solid rib on lay away at Cabelas... Then decided I didn't want to enter into another shotgun gauge so late in life and I let it go.. Probably a big mistake.. But if I had a love for the 16 I would certainly be looking for an old model 12...
Belgium Sweet 16. Vent Rib, Modified. When you find one under $1,000 please let me know
Thanks
If you are in the Central Coast region of California it isn't surprising that you find prices higher than most of the rest of the country. The Internet gun sites are not much better though one can find some decent deals on the auction house sites.
You could try any smaller gun shop or gun show in MN, IA, western WI, or probably the Dakotas and probably find something that meets your description for under $1000. They don't grow on trees but they are not as rare as hen's teeth either. When I was "collecting" A-5s I bought most of my better condition guns out of Arizona. Prices were a lot more reasonable than here as there was a lot less demand for shotguns there. All the retiree's probably helped as it brought guns there where there was less demand.
I was just at a Cabela's last night and saw a 16 ga A-5 for $650. It had a solid rib rather than ventilated, Full choke rather than Mod, and may not have been a Sweet 16 (I didn't take it down to look for the differences) but for the price one could have the choke reamed out and be well under $1000. For a max of 8 oz, I do not think the price premium asked between the standard and Sweet 16 is worth it, especially when one could get within a few ounces with some alterations.
If one is looking for a shooter and not a "collectible" then picking up a plain barrel A-5 with a Poly-Choke and having it threaded for choke tubes and adding a vent rib should get one a gun under $1000. One probably could get the whole works reblued and still be under that mark with some shopping around. Refinishing the wood would bring things over a grand unless one did the work themselves. This is just a suggestion to provoke thought in other possibilities. Sometimes function/appearance trumps originality.
With a single barrel, a VR may have some application on a Waterfowl gun, but on a field shotgun VR's are highly overrated. Essentially being more metal to carry around. But they usually look nice.
I have a friend that really wants a 16 ga, but can not afford a Sweet 16.
He would settle for an O/U or semi auto.
Any suggestions?
Speaking of Model 12 16ga's. Solid seller from the fire. Price is a little high, but he said "Let's get this sold." Then again it sounds clean enough to warrant extra. And when it comes to Model 12 16's, the only thing that out handles a 28inch is a 26inch being as there is about 6 inches of receiver sighting plane. I already have two or it probably wouldn't still be here.
Then again if one can put off instant gratification and really wants a SxS, and be willing to save up awhile. This would be a great one. There was one local awhile back for $3800. A lifetime shotgun and not something one will likely grow tired of and trade off for something else they will tire of.
My Dickinson 16 SxS has become my most used shotgun. No, it doesn't match my Beretta O/U for quality, but it ain't junk either. Not all Turk guns are the same, there are several makers building guns to importers specs. You get whatever the importer asked for.
Dickinson is a nice shotgun as was the Kimber Turkish made true sidekick SxS. The kimber is no long made and you can hardly give them away. Unless Dickinson takes off, you will have the same issue. And as of yet they haven’t. Then perhaps there becomes a parts issue down the line.
Beretta has been around for 480 years and it doesn’t look like the are going away soon along with having a repair facility in the USA. Spend your money and take your chances. As of now, it’s not a fair bet, Berrtta vs Dickinson.
I own two Auto 5's in 16 gauge. One is a Browning Sweet Sixteen, and the other is an Auto 5 made by Remington in 1943 when they were making them for Browning due to the FN factory in Belgium being occupied by the German's during WWII. The other is a Remington 11-48. The 16 is so well balanced, the power of a 12 gauge and the handling of a 20 gauge. I have never understood why the 16 doesn't get re-introduced by one of the major manufacturers, & with a 3" chamber would be even better.
Dickinson is a nice shotgun as was the Kimber Turkish made true sidekick SxS. The kimber is no long made and you can hardly give them away. Unless Dickinson takes off, you will have the same issue. And as of yet they haven’t. Then perhaps there becomes a parts issue down the line.
Beretta has been around for 480 years and it doesn’t look like the are going away soon along with having a repair facility in the USA. Spend your money and take your chances. As of now, it’s not a fair bet, Berrtta vs Dickinson.
The Dickinson and the Kimber were made by the same company. The Kimber boxlock was basically the same gun with more embelishment. I'm not argueing that the Dickinson is a close match to the Beretta, just that Beretta doesn't import shotguns in my preferred configuration(SxS) and Dickinson does.
I had one of the gunsmiths from Krieghoff look at the insides of the Kimber and he acknowledged it was very well made. He then patterned it and again was impressed. If the Dickinson is made by the same people and they make and maintain it to the same standard it should be fine. My only reservation is that importers like this are often here today and gone tomorrow.
Had to have the triggers lightened on mine, not many smiths around that know much about the trigger plate action that Dickinson uses. I've heard the last few years the triggers have gotten better. Mine patterns great, actually a little tight in each choke tube for it's marking. The cylinder tube is actually .004-.005 constriction. Each tube up the line is correspondingly that much tight.
Probably misremembering, thought that Kimber had both a boxlock and a fancier sidelock. Them and the Dickinson were made by Akus in Turkey.
About 15 years ago Ithaca made a 16 for a short period of time. I picked one up from a friend that bought it new and had it about a year. It’s been my go to shotgun for the thick stuff ever since. It has a straight stock and a 24 inch barrel. I’ll never part with it. Weighs maybe 5 1/2 pounds.
About 15 years ago Ithaca made a 16 for a short period of time. I picked one up from a friend that bought it new and had it about a year. It’s been my go to shotgun for the thick stuff ever since. It has a straight stock and a 24 inch barrel. I’ll never part with it. Weighs maybe 5 1/2 pounds.
I'd love to see a photo of that.
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I have a 1953, Belgium Sweet Sixteen, solid rib, Cyclone (the best of the time and classy looking on a vintage gun) adjustable choke if he is interested. Also have a factory letter with the gun. Very clean and nice looking gun. Shoot me a PM if interested.
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Remington Model 11 is the poorman’s version of the Browning A5. Only thing missing is the magazine cutoff and they sell for less than half of the Browning. A Remington Model 31 can also be found in 16 ga and is a great pump shotgun for considerably less than a Win M-12. Browning has made the Citori O/U’s for a number of years and a used one occasionally shows up for a good price.
I have 2 16ga. shotguns. Ones a single shot that my dad got back in the 40's. It really does kick like a mule! LOL! The second is a Stevens model 30 pump action take down. I really screwed up when I sold my very early Remington 870 ADL Deluxe 16ga.! One I'd definitely like to get back. I know it's a pump, but there's a couple model 30's on gunbroker for around $200.
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My youngest son and I participated in an informal clay bird shoot yesterday at a friends house to bring the New Year in with a BANG. He was using an Auto 5 with modified vent rib and I with a Model 12, both in 16 ga. We cleaned the clocks of several of the folks in attendance, one shooting a dedicated trap under barrel Browning. The looks on there faces when the purple shells ejected and their amazement of the range of someone who understands its capability.
The old Ithaca NID or Flues in 16 are nice handling shotguns and nearly always worth the money. Or, a fella could just do it once and do it right and pick up an easy to find German double in 16 from between the wars and be done with it. The only smoothbores I own are 16's and all of them are German but for my old 1913 Ithaca Flues.
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My Dickinson 16 SxS has become my most used shotgun. No, it doesn't match my Beretta O/U for quality, but it ain't junk either. Not all Turk guns are the same, there are several makers building guns to importers specs. You get whatever the importer asked for.
The Turks can and do make some very good shotguns. Even my very cheap Armson 12ga autolader is a well made and reliable gun. I bought it used "like new" for $125.00 plus shipping. It takes Beretta choke tubes and will shoot any 2 3/4" and 3" shell without modification. They also make good doubles...decent handling and nicely fitted. Turkey has a long history in gun making.
Back to 16s...I love the bore and have nine guns in 16ga; it comes with being a masochist, liking pokes in my eyes, dogs biting my ankles, IRS audits, and finding 16 ga ammo in a pinch.
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Yes, it will be hard (impossible)to find a Belgium Sweet 16 for under $1000. However, I have come across some decent Belgium Standard 16's for around a $1000 in the past. The standards are actually harder to find than the sweets, but tend to be much cheaper. I have one of each, and the Sweet is only 7 ounces lighter than the Standard.
I sold a very nice Sweet with Solid rib choked I/C about a month or so ago for less than a grand to someone here on the fire. It was the Sweet I bought this summer as I had always wanted one, but found I shoot my Standard A5 16's much better. I had even offered one of the Standards up for less than $700 to a Gentlemen looking to get one as a present for a buddy that let him hunt on his land, but something must of happened as he suddenly quit communication after I thought we had an agreement. There are some very nice ones and some beat to hell out there, but they all seem to function great with a little maintenance.
The one I currently own was converted to take 2 3/4" smells sometime in the past. It is one of the reasons I bought it. The previous pre-WWII guns were all original as that was my priority. The conversion works just as well as the originals did.
Remington Model 11 is the poorman’s version of the Browning A5. Only thing missing is the magazine cutoff and they sell for less than half of the Browning. A Remington Model 31 can also be found in 16 ga and is a great pump shotgun for considerably less than a Win M-12. Browning has made the Citori O/U’s for a number of years and a used one occasionally shows up for a good price.
The magazine cutoff, the speed feed, engraving embellishment and blue polish are differences between a Browning Auto Five and the Remington Model 11.
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There are also differences in the stocks and safety/trigger assemblies. I learned the former trying to replace the buttstock on an "American" A-5 and the latter is obvious by looking at the particular guns, especially the pre-WWII guns.
There are a few other options out there. Browning made a run of the BPS in 16ga a short while back. Franchi is making a run of O/U's in 16, though they are probably priced about the same as a Sweet 16. Someone, CZ maybe had some imported SxS a while back, though I can't recall prices. I'd cruise through the listings on Gunbroker - I found a shooter-grade Sauer SxS on there for $550. Kills pheasants dead.
I've all ways been a 16 fan.... 2 Belgian Sweets and a Jap one, a M37R, and an LC Smith Field grade. Cabelas in RC SD had a nice LC Smith Field grade a week or so back under a grand. If you are going the Belgian Sweet Route find One with Imp Cyl choke which will be as tight a patterning as anyone else modified. MB
" Cheapest velocity in the world comes from a long barrel and I sure do like them. MB "
