Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Mule Deer; 3 shot, 5 shot and 10 shot groups

BSA, yep. My original post revolves around killing a whitetail size animal out to 350 or 400 yards and shooting 8" plates from 300 to 550 yards.

What we learn on the internet is invaluable. Thank you to all, especially Mule Deer, for sharing such had proven info.

Oddly enough, I had migrated to 6 shot groups as the best intersection for me of adequate info and economy.

I was one who loaded 3 shot groups in half grain increments and went with the load that produced the tightest group, unless they were all bad. That's the process that my red neck reloading mentor taught me. When I arrived here, I assumed that all reloaders did that except for some hyper target shooters obsessed with minutia. The first time I did that half grain/3 shot progression, I lucked into a superb load (and obviously had lucked into a good barrel and rifle) and thought that this was easy. I shot game with that rifle for over 20 years and regret ever selling the ugly old thing. It was the only all day shooter I've ever owned.

Let's say you're on a coyote stand and 6 coyotes come to the call. You fire 3 shots killing 3 coyotes and the other 3 hightail it out to 550 yards before pulling up and looking back. Your barrel has just fired 3 rounds, do you know where the 4th shot will go at 550?

Shooting 10 rounds gives you a clue on whether to work on your gun or on yourself. It's part of being a hunter, being prepared and knowing your limits. As I said, I like to shoot and I shoot a lot.

I'm also a bow hunter and shooting a lot is paramount. No different in shooting a gun.

Now I know what to do with all that ammo I've handloaded and stored over the years - shoot it up on 10 shot groups and see how my hack "best load" techniques hold up. Give me a chance to clean the ammo locker out, too.

This is a great line right here. I feel the exact same way....

Why sure, only 10 times ?


I do NOT rely on 3 shot groups. I've never shot a 10 shot group. 'Normally' I shoot 4, 5, or 6 shots depending on my physical calmness or anxiety. I shoot enough groups to be satisfied with the load.

**More importantly** I check the first AND second shot from a cold bore repeatedly.


Jerry

I can appreciate your OP. I think many of us here have done the same thing. Actually had our eyes opened to the fact. However, some guys either try to sweep things under the rug and continue to shoot 3 shot groups and pretend it's just as good. When in fact, we know it isn't. Like someone in the black rifle challenge said, if it were that easy, everyone would be doing it. There's more proof in the "one moa all day long" thread here. You have a lot of smack talk going on and a lot of 1/2 moa rifles and shooters here, but not a lot of proof of those rifles and shooters in those challenges...

Nice story, but what's the statistical likelihood of it occurring?

As I explained in the "three shot group" thread linked above, what you describe is statistically unlikely. Although you will get the occasional 1/2 MOA group out of a 2 moa rifle, your typical 3 shot group will average around an inch and a half, and multiple (3+) consecutive 1/2 moa 3 or 5 shot groups out of a 2 moa gun is unlikely.

And how many 3 shot groups have you shot with each of those rifles?

The big fallacy of the group opposed to the use of smaller group counts is the assumption the shooter will accept the results of a single trial as valid.

So, you put your rifle on paper, shoot a sub-moa 3 shot group, adjust your point of impact, and shoot another sub moa 3 shot group. Check it one more before the big day with the same result. Now your up to three consecutive 3 shot sub moa groups. Of course there are some here who will insist you have insufficient to reliably kill anything.

But again, we are evaluating the "body of work" associated with this rifle/load combination and not cherry picking the single best groups it's ever fired.

In the end, that's the real point of this discussion. The best group ever fired by a rifle is not necessarily representative of it's capability's on the typical day.

10 shot groups just rub a lot of folks the wrong way. Doesn’t have to be ten shots fired at the same time though. Could be one shot at a time, letting the barrel cool completely between every shot if you like.

I’ve said this before but to those advocates of “the first shot is all that matters” or three shot groups or some such, shoot three 3-shot groups but shoot them at the same point of aim while letting the barrel cool completely between every three shots... or every shot if you wish... That will give you a much more truthful indicator of what your rifle is capable of.

I’m sure I’m not the one that “discovered” this, but I used to wonder why my light barreled hunting rigs often would put two together and have one of those pesky “fliers” so I finally started stacking those groups and saw that the “fliers” weren’t fliers at all but just a representation of what that particular rifle and load are capable of. Sometimes the rifle would shoot consecutive tiny groups but the POI would be slightly different. Once I stacked those groups on top of each other or shot them at the same POA, I saw that my beloved #2 barreled 1/2” rifle was really a 1 1/4” rifle.

Y’all don’t be scared now. Give it a try...😂😂😂

John

Not many MOA all day long rifles out there.😂😂😂

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...-moa-all-day-long-challenge#Post13042080

John

I agree. I just took mine out today and won 4 turkeys with it. Good day at the range.... for some of us .. I'm just glad i wasn't shooting against you..

Not real scientific but I had a little CVA single-shot 7 mm 08 that gave me fits until I loaded Varget down around the speed that you would find with youth loads. The gun had driven me crazy with occasional vertical flyers. My final test was with a 2 to 7 scope at 200 yards. I was shooting off of sandbags but I was purposely trying to be a little inconsistent on my grip and shoulder pressure. When I was done I had a 10 shot group that I could cover by folding a dollar bill in half...... I think that's about as good as I'm going to get a $225 break open gun to shoot!

And notice how the rules for the challenges link to above forbid the use of a rest.
This of course, was just another gimmick to bias the results.

I’m glad I didn’t read this thread 25 years ago... All the animals, including 10’s of thousands of prairie dogs, I’ve killed since then likely wouldn’t have died had i this knowledge then... I have a lot of respect for a lot of the earned opinions on this on this thread but I’m going to stick to 3 shot groups and continue to be successful doing so.

A gun that shoots sub MOA 3 shot groups on a regular basis is going to be more accurate than a rifle that shoots regular 2 MOA groups.

Todd

With rifles and full-power loads purposed toward hunting big animals, 3- or 4-shot groups are all I ever shoot. I try to chronograph at least 9 over three different shooting sessions (three 3-shot groups) before I come to any conclusions for speed, and It's the same with accuracy. If I can duplicate accuracy two times, and the velocity doesn't do anything wonky, I can begin to trust the load. From there, I try to shoot at 300 yds (or farther) to make sure I know what is going on farther out.

With 22 cal and under, it depends. I usually shoot 5-shot groups, but sometimes, I will use the above.

For cast bullets in various rifles, I usually shoot 5-shot groups.

I rarely shoot more than 5 at a time for load testing. For practice at longer distances, I usually shoot 3 shots at a time. For offhand practice at reactive targets such as water bottles, I'll shoot until I hit the target(s) selected.

Ballistipedia is indeed a cool website as M.D. has pointed out. I first looked into after he mentioned in one of his past articles. One snippet I always found interesting was in the section on Range Statistics and the sub-section of Efficient Estimators that talks about the most efficient number of shots to determine an accurate load.

It does indeed mention 3-shot groups as being a waste of bullets, but what I always found interesting is it says the same thing about 10-shot groups. Not that they are not large enough to provide meaningful results, but that they do not provide any value over 9-shot groups.

"Efficient Estimators
Relative Efficiency of Extreme Spread estimation by group size.

If our goal is to characterize a range statistic using the least number of shots then we should pick our group size carefully. Kolbe et. al. noted that for any desired error and confidence level it looked like 7-shot groups produced a significant estimate using the lowest number of total shots fired. Using our more extensive simulations of the coefficient of variation we can see now that 6-shot groups are actually the most efficient, and that 5-shot groups are practically as efficient (and for many scenarios identical).

4- and 8-shot groups are almost as efficient, but if you're shooting 3-shot groups or groups larger than 9 shots then you are wasting bullets." [Emphasis mine]

Based on your years of reloading and the number of game animals you've killed, I would read this thread, smile and not bother posting. This is not a slight.

You are performing consistently. I would consider that what is put forward by others as irrelevant to your situation. There might be an explanation, but is it important to you? Continue doing what you're doing and let the others argue.

Engineers used to tell me that I needed to understand a problem, and they would explain things. I always told them, "Since I'm gonna fix it, I'll let the equipment explain the problem."

You know everything you need to know to be successful.
---

"Stay away from negative people. They have a problem for every solution."
- anonymous

The reason I shoot 10-shot groups with rodent rifles is to make sure the barrel heats up enough to discover whether it "walks." Extensive testing has confirmed that 9 shots doesn't get 'em hot enough. :-)

And I've never been in the habit of loading nine round batches.