Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Faster TTSX vs slower LRX

memtb,

With your concerns about the LRX "possibly shedding too much weight," you might check out this thread:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13278496/1

Do you like how the Nosler PT works on similar shots? Functionally, a Barnes that sheds petals still has the solid rear, much like a PT that sheds its front half. I haven’t killed enough with the LRX yet to say definitively about the petal shedding behaviour, but I’ve seen the TSX and TTSX shed petals a bunch, and they kill very effectively under such conditions.

Sid, Buy and shoot a bunch of LRX’s in heavier weight, push them to around 3000+ fps, and shoot some game, up close and personal! Get back to me with the results....I respect your opinion. Not exactly sure why....but I do! memtb

While I agree that the science behind lead bans is overwrought, I recognize that it won't go away. Personally I have started to use some TSX's in light high velocity cartridges for hunting but only because they work swell not because I buy into their "need". In truth, how many gut piles does the average guy (not a Campfire Commando) leave behind in the woods for scavengers to pick apart and ingest tiny pieces of lead from? How many shots does the average guy fling around the deer woods? I can maybe see it if I regularly fired hundreds of shots into prairie dog towns, but I don't.

For .30-30, .303 Savage, .30/40 Krag and their ilk I use monometals too- cast lead bullets, which cost me nothing to make, are accurate as jacketed bullets, can be driven at factory velocities, and kill like factory ammo. In the '06's which I tote when there's a remote chance of a long-ish shot I use the cup-and-cores that have served me well for 50 years now (although I do cast sidelong glances at 130 TSX's from time to time).

I shoot a lot in the course of a year. Mayhaps not as much as some denizens of the 'Fire, but thousands of rounds nonetheless- 99.99% of them at shooting ranges against formidable paper targets. If I had to switch to non-toxic projectiles I would have to take up girl watching instead as I couldn't afford to shoot anymore.

Jordan, We used the Nosler Partions in my wife’s .270 Win., and were very pleased. But, I started using the Barnes X Bullets around ‘93 in my rifle (375 AI)...was so impressed, I’ve only used Barnes since ( recently going to the 250TTSX), changing bullets “only” as Barnes upgraded. The same with my wife’s rifle (.338 WM, have always used 225’s - presently running TTSX’s) since ‘94. We are both very pleased with the performance of the Barnes bullets. We use them for “all” of our big game (deer/antelope thru elk/moose) hunting! memtb

Thanks Mule Deer! I’m all over it! I read this, and this ( among some other info), and, has me a little concerned. I prefer it to “stay together”, even on high velocity, close range hits....even if I have to sacrifice some BC. I guess life is a compromise! memtb

I understand that, but several people have blown the front ends of standard X's, from the original to the TSX and TTSX's, and animals ended up quickly dead anyway. As I noted in one of my posts on that thread, the farthest I've ever had a big game animal travel after being hit by any of them that had their petals blown off is 38 yards. Have seen a number of animals travel farther with solid chest hits from X-Bullets that either exited or retained all their petals.

But a lot of people are convinced that 100% weight retention is The Answer.

In my experience X bullets that have blown the petals off have always killed faster.

Those petals are doing damage to structures off the main bullet path.

That’s why I have been a little hesitant to switch from AccuBonds or Partitions...I’ve always liked the idea of a shower of fragments into the lungs and heart. Sounds like I can get the same effect with a Barnes bullet.

I have had 100% success with Barnes TTSX and TSX bullets in 7mm and .30 cal, as have several hunting buddies all of whom switched to Barnes. I hesitate to raise the ire of diehard loonies over bullet selection and effectiveness but there is nothing more than 100% dead. Why mess with success? If you want to kill chit, use a Barnes TTSX. If you want to jaw around on the’Fire, that’s a whole nother matter. Happy Trails

1). What has been the lead level results in raptors in say... the Kaibab since the almost universal use of lead free bullets?


2). You do know that ingesting lead bullets is NOT how you get lead poisoning, correct...? I mean like medically that’s not how it works.





Same as #1 above?

In my experience a LRX is just a TTSX with better aerodynamics. Maybe they open a bit faster, I don’t know, but I’ve put six of the 145 gr lrx’s through both shoulders of mature bull elk from 100 to 375 yds and all of them completely penetrated. That tells me they hold together plenty well. I don’t see a reason to go heavier, any extra energy will just go into the dirt on the other side of the critter.

As Formidilosus said, that’s not how lead poisoning works.

However, most raptor who die from lead die from an accumulation of lead pieces in their gut, where it neither passes or dissolves, but forms a blockage.

Google it.

You’ll see lots of research with birds and raptors with visible chunks of lead in their gut, and a note that says “died from lead poisoning.”

But they did not. Lead poisoning is an affliction in the blood. Not an accumulation of insoluble lead elsewhere in the body.

The end result seems no different to me than it would be from scraps of a monometal bullet, like the TTSX or the TSX and their like.

So, unless you’re going to hunt with a bullet that is not toxic and is digestible by raptors (there are none) then your reason for changing is invalid, and you should just stick with what currently works for you.

WAM,

I've had 100% success with a wide variety of bullets over the past several decades, and so have my hunting partners, including my wife, who's killed a wider variety of big game, with a wider variety of bullets, than most people who post on the Campfire.

We like the various Barnes X's a lot--and have, again, probably shot more animals with them than most who claim they're the ONLY bullet. Partly because that'd what I do--and Eileen is always a willing test-helper. But to claim X's (or any other monolithic) are magic, much less the ONLY solution, to me reveals a limited perspective. Got into just such a discussion with another guy who claimed TSX's were the only solution, and it turned out he'd seen about 30 animals taken with them.

Have also seen enough X's (and other monolithics) used on big game to be pretty sure they kill quicker when losing some petals--which normally happens when they hit relatively heavy bone, resulting in both the petals and bone fragments damaging more tissue. When used on behind-the-shoulder shots they definitely kill 100% of the time, but on average animals travel farther before falling than with bullets that lose more weight, because there isn't as much tissue damage. Again, this isn't a claim from, say, seeing 30 animals taken, but quite a few more.

Call me crazy, but one of my bottom lines with any big game bullet is how quickly they kill--and not just in "examples of one," but a bunch of animals, with various bullet placements on a wide range of animals.

As a more general note, I have done a LOT of research into the lead-poisoning issue in the past decade. Major studies have varied in the effect on humans, but perhaps the biggest study (done in Europe, comparing hunters with the general population) found hunters have lower lead-levels in their blood that non-hunters in the same general population. This was partly attributed to, perhaps, more hunters living in rural areas, which had lower levels of the general lead pollution (from fuels, paint etc,) that tends to raise blood-lead levels most.

An example of one that fits right into this is my wife Eileen, who had to have her blood tested annually for a number of years in the 1990's and early 2000's. She also had a lower lead-level in her blood than average in Americans, despite the fact that we mostly used lead-core bullets back then. But we also live in an area with generally lower lead pollution than most of the country.

In general, we have not found monolithic bullets to be any more reliable for killing big game than various lead-core bullets. But we use them a lot, primarily because we like the way they ruin less meat on smaller big game, or tend to penetrate deeper with lighter-weight bullets, which is important to Eileen due to her tendency to get recoil headaches in the past decade or so.

Speaking of blown petals and speaking of raptors, brings to mind the CEB Raptor. It's a mono bullet designed to shed 6 petals on impact. The few I've used worked as advertised. I have some CEB Raptor 235's loaded over RL-15 in my .375 H&H that I want to try on WT's and hogs. I know they group, just gotta get the scope adjusted for 1 1/2" hi at a hundred.

I've killed stuff with the 135 CEB Raptor in a .308. It grouped them pretty well, too. Note low S.D./E.S. with Varget.

I know, I know, three shot groups, but good enough for hunting, IMO. Gives me a good idea where the 4th bullet is likely to land...

And, measuring groups to thousands is overkill. So, just assume both are sub half inch, at least once. MOA a safe bet most of the time.

They are expensive, but how many do we actually shoot at game? Practice with something cheaper, save these for critters. Works for me.

DF

Formidilosus,

Perhaps you could explain to me how lead poisoning happens, both in humans and raptors? I’m just a simple country doctor, M.D., and have taken care of a number of patients who have ingested lead, and others who have had lead poisoning, and still others with lead bullets left in their bodies. Some in joints, most elsewhere. Maybe my understanding of the biochemistry is all wrong, but please recall that I did not start this discussion so I could have an argument about lead poisoning in humans or raptors. I simply wanted to discuss the ballistics of different kinds of Barnes bullets. The good thing is that there is a lot of collective experience with these bullets available here. Please note that I am not worried about ingestion of lead by me or others who ingest game that I kill. Rather I am thinking that it would be good to not leave lead in carcasses out in the field.

I don’t require 100% weight retention....but 99% is OK! memtb

Kinda like a Berger.

Well, maybe.

To me, the Cutting Edge Raptor is the mono answer to the Partition.

You don't want to shoot Bergers much beyond their design window. For example, with the 26 Nosler, I noticed Berger's load data way short of max. I called them, talked to a tech. He let me know they didn't want their VLD Hunting to be shot over 3,100 fps, suggested I use the target version with tougher jacket.

I abandoned Berger bullets for that round, went with monos; been there ever since. At those velocities, monos tear up meat pretty bad without blowing up. And for those concerned about such, they do exit.

DF