Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Abraham Lincoln's Crimes

260Remguy: no fair injecting reason and logic into a perfectly enjoyable hate fest.

BTW, I'm don't count myself among Lincoln's biggest fans, but is only fair to note that one of Lincoln's "crimes" is specifically provided for in the Constitution. Others may be more open to argument than we would like.

Just call me "Virgil Cain"!!!!

Draw your own conclusions.

There are those that are only happy when they are doing their best to trash and destroy others. A world of negativity, hate, bias and bitterness.

Welcome to the new history where finding every fault and mistake is the only goal.

You should read a biography of Jefferson Davis. He was, in reality, a hero. The revisionist histories of the North assassinated his character after the war. As a politician, he did the best with that which he had to work with, which wasn't much. The South was blockaded nearly the whole war. With all the able-bodied men off fighting, it is no wonder that horrific hardships were endured.

Did you know that Jefferson Davis was held by the Yankees with no trial? If the Yankees were indeed putting down an internal rebellion as they claimed, then he was due a trial, which he pleaded for with his captors. The Supreme Court Chief Justice at the time admitted years later that Davis would have been aquitted and the whole war shown for the sham that it was. Since the Yankees gave President Davis no trial, they were tacitly admitting that they attacked a foreign country.

"One Day God Willing and The Creek Don't Rise The South is Gonna Rise Again"!!!

"Why I was fourteen years old when I learned that Damn and Yankee weren�t one word"!!


Do not know who to give credit for these.

Well I here I go again.

I've always been a Southern sympathizer and I suppose it is because I've always been an Anti-Federalist from the Northern New England area now living in Montana. The South was right and has always been right. The New England states were the first states that came real close to seceding from the Union over the War of 1812 and other issues. States should be allowed to secede when the Federal government no longer meets its needs. Imagine the fun we would have if once one is married one could not divorce for any reason.

Slavery was a technology. As such, when new technology came on line to make the plantation owner more profitable and eliminate slavery he would have gotten rid of his slaves in a heart beat. Look at modern day farming and how many employees does the modern farm and ranch have today? Not many. Technology has replaced 97 to 98 percent of the employees.

If the South had won there would never had been World War II or any of the problems we have today. WWI was fought to a stand still until the US entered WWI and threw the balance of power out of whack. European power would have sued for a negotiated peace to maintain the status quo.

I admit that if the South had won the US would not have become a super power but would that have been a bad thing?

I was being slightly tongue in cheek... but only slightly. I guess I just prefer rural and small town areas to places overrun with homo sapiens sapiens. Androscoggin and Oxford counties aren't that bad, except of course for Lewiston. LOL.

That would be #2.

Oh.....yeah...... and they HATE America also.

Great post DD. You are a Yankee after my own heart and I mean no offense by the word's usage.

Many different scenarios could have taken place if the South would have won. The thing I see the South really wanting was to force the North to obey the principles of our constitution as set forth by the founding fathers. Whether they could have gotten back together or what really matters none as history teaches us that big government and "fluid interpretation" of the constitution won. We are lucky that we are not worse off than we are now in this country. I will say that reconstruction notwithstanding, the North was rather magnanimous in its overall treatment of the South and we still enjoy rights that could have been much more trampled than they are if certain events had gone differently. Thanks be to God for the freedoms that we enjoy and also thanks to Him for allowing us to live in the most free country in the world-even though we lost the war.

I am sure that all of us here, even 280Don will agree that ours is still the best country in the world even though we feel that our own Confederate States of America lies subjugated within it. One must walk a tight line sometimes between the natural patriotism he feels for this country and justifiable and needed criticisms of it. Constructive criticisms that can only serve to make things better.

Hard to imagine a victorious South EVER reuniting with a numerically superior North. And lose sway at the ballot box? Why would they?

In the aftermath to the present look for:

In the meantime probably numerous skirmishes and even hostilities as the question of who owned what out West came to the fore.

Slavery persisting until at least the 1880's, not because of economics but because the South, at least by implication, had been manouvered into shedding blood and treasure to uphold that institution as a point of law and morality.

A resurgent England, playing one side off against the other in all matters to her own benefit.

And a modern balance of power irrevocably shifted to the Old World, whatever form it might take.

Birdwatcher

Birdy, "State's Rights" was a thorn in Jeff Davis' side through out the war. States held back men and equipment for their own reasons, though the men and equipment were badly needed elswhere in the Confederacy. Davis and the government took steps to correct this, but it never was fully corrected. Of course, the original 13 colonies did the same in our Revolution, much to the pain of Washington and congress. The US never did correct the strong central government during war versus states rights debate. At least not until 1865 or so.

Some-one correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the right of succession extended to Texas when she joined the union? I'm thinking that, along with being able to split into two or three other states, was a perpetual right guaranteed by the US when she became a state. Guess that sailed out the window too when the Blue-coats marched south.



True, but the way I see it, we're just the healthiest patient in the terminal ward!

I doubt our debate here means very much anyway. The guns have been silent for over 140 years now. As I said, we are much better off as one nation than as two. My own view of Lincoln is as a great man because he held us together. I'm willing to forgive his usurpation of power, because he did what was needed for our survival as one nation. (government "of the people, by the people, and for the people" notwithstanding. Some rules and restrictions may apply.)

I think most of our trouble started years later under FDR and "The New Deal". {don't tell my Dad I said that! )
7mm

I see no reason to accept that slavery would have died a natural death had it not been outlawed. To this day it persists among Saudi royals (it is in fact illegal in Saudi Arabia) who can afford to pay absurd wages without putting a perceptible dent in their wealth. It is a cultural holdover, it is a badge of status, but it is not an economic necessity.

The notion of slavery just going away is apologist BS. It was enschrined by name as the natural state of affairs in every single rebel constitution. The argument about it being a war of economic and states rights issues by the south is at best deception of the worst sort, it is technicaly true but one must understand the wealth was slaves whoes value in the south was more than all the crops and land. The "States rights" issue was over the southern assertion that northern states had to return slaves to the south no matter what the northern state thought about the barbaric practice. Finally Lincoln reacted after numerous government aresenals were attacked by rebels and finally the rebels left the union and attacked US territory, then and only then did Lincoln act after war had been declared on him and agressive actions taken against the US.

Here is the deal, the Civil War was about slavery as an institution, as a monetary commodity and as a culture. The south rightly lost the war because they were inferior in government system, social system, morals and manufacturing. The war has been over for 140 years, you southerners lost, get over it. These BS excuses and attempts to detach the war from slavery were long ago beyond the pale. In the words of Forrest Gump, stupid is as stupid does, and this argument is biblically stupid.

Thanks for the kind words. BTW: I know where the name Ethan Edwards comes from.

Here's another angle to consider the Anglo/Saxon and the Anglo/Celtic culture. The Anglo/Saxon settled the North and Anglo/Celtic settled the South.

The Anglo/Saxon culture was based on hard work, very strick
religious observance and very limited recreational pursuits. The Anglo/Celtic culture was based on work but not dawn to dusk back breaking work, liberal religious observance, and a whole lot of recreation. I went back to English history prior to the first colonies being established in this country to learn more. I also looked at Western history in the late 1800's west of the Mississippi especially those states that had strong Southern influence to learn even more. Articles I've read said that the three recreational pursuits of the time were whiskey, wagering, and whoring. I might add that once there was plenty of cattle and refrigerator cars (trains) hunting and camping became big recreational pursuits as well. The Anglo/Saxon was against the 3 W's etc. while the Anglo/Celtic pursued the 3 W's with abound. The point is that the War of Northern Aggression had more to do with the Anglo/Saxon and Anglo/Celtic culture than anything else.

I moved to Montana about 25 years ago and the first thing I notice was the very causal dress and life style that everyone had especially with work. It's tough to get much done in the summer because everyone is out recreating (myself included). And forget the Holidays especially Christmas with getting anything done because we are party animals. To understand this better I took a college level Montana history course. What I discovered is that the original white settlers were Southerns both before the War and after the War and the Anglo/Celtic culture is alive and well. One more thing I go to the Unitarian/Universalist Church. We don't meet in the summer time because we are a small congregation and most likely we would all be out recreating at least I know I am. I think one can see how irritating this party culture would be to a straight lace culture such as the Northern Anglo/Saxon culture.

There you go using The Bible again.

The North gave up slavery when owning slaves was no longer viable. Instead the North went to the use of sweat shops which was a sticky wicket with the South. In fact the slaves had a higher per capita income than the sweat shop workers. There are government figures to back this up. Bet you didn't know that.

Slavery has always evolved but never entirely disapeared. Share-cropping, sweat shops, indentured servitude, the "company store", are all slightly prettier (but still ugly) sisters of slavery. The exploitation of illegal aliens would qualify as a direct decendant of slavery.

Arguments about the swell treatment slaves received are profound nonsense.

So your signature line really reflects that you're pretending to be something you're not? You claim allegiance to a political entity that hasn't existed for nearly 142 year? I think that anyone whose self-worth or self-image centers on his/her affiliation with something that doesn�t exist is truly a pathetic loser.

The most ignorant example of "Confederates vs. Yankees" mentality was at Stone Mountain, GA, about 22 years ago. My Father and I were visiting the Civil War Museum there and a small boy reached out to touch a Union flag, also known as "The Stars and Stripes". The boy's Mother grabbed him and said, "Don't touch that flag! It's a Yankee flag!� My Father, who spent 30 years as an enlisted US Marine (E-4), a commissioned US Marine (O-4), and a DAF Civilian, retiring as a GS-18, reminded the woman, her husband, and her son that we are all Americans and whatever happened in the past is best left in the past, lest it distract us from our ability to focus on the future. I thought that it was good advice then and think that it is still good advice.

Jeff

I've heard this reasoning before. My own people are Scotch-Irish on both sides.

I didn't say the slaves had swell treatment. I said per capita income.

Illegal aliens are not slaves or exploited. First, the aliens are here illegally and if they don't like the treatment--leave. Second, they came here freely and where not brought here by force. They can leave anytime they want. Nobody's going to go after them to bring them back except maybe to move them a little bit faster to move them back across the border. Third, they are illegal I don't give a damn what happens to them even if a thousand died a day providing cheap goods.

Now let's get back to the thread at hand or is it time to move on because us Southerns have made our point.