Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Faster TTSX vs slower LRX

Riverdog,

As an "old country doctor" you must surely know of the difference between soluble lead (i.e. the type used in paint and gasoline, and pretty much everywhere on old farm houses) and insoluble lead (i.e the type used in munitions, fishing lures, etc.).

See page 2 of this article for an explaination of why lead poisioning is still common, but why it is not from the type of lead used in bullets:


"All of the major soluble lead compounds have industrial uses. Lead
acetate is used as a water repellent, for mildew protection, and as a
mordant for cotton dyes. Lead acetate trihydrate is used in varnishes,
chrome pigments, and as an analytical reagent, and lead chloride is
used in asbestos clutch or brake linings, as a catalyst, and as a flame
retardant. Lead nitrate is used in the manufacture of matches and
explosives, as a heat stabilizer in nylon, and as a coating on paper for
photothermography. Lead subacetate is used in sugar analysis and for
clarifying solutions of organic substances (HSDB 2009). "

I’ve been carrying a “little” piece of lead around in my left lung since 1962..... no lead poisoning yet! memtb

And I have been carrying approximately twenty #7 1/2 lead shot pellets in my lower legs from a trapshooting accdent since 2003.....no problems because of it.

It is my understanding that for lead to be toxic to humans it must be small enough to enter the blood stream....or it must be colloidal. This is why birds are the most injured by lead left in carcasses....they have gizzards and these gizzards can actually "grind" the lead particles against other stones in the gizzard into colloidal particles....and this allows for lead to enter the bloodstream.

The body walls off a foreign body like that.

DF

Around here, raptors (black vultures) get lead poisoning at ~ 3,000fps from stockmen.

A search by posts from UtahLefty (I don't think he posts here anymore) on the effect and mechanism of lead + raptors might worth your time. He was a falconer and a veterinarian.

Elemental lead isn’t a problem unless you get shot with it. The dangerous stuff is the compounds of lead (lead salts) like the compounds that used to be used in paint as a drying agent, which is why old houses with “lead paint” are a danger to kids that eat the flakes.

For the most part mammals aren’t going to be harmed by ingesting a little lead shot. Birds are different for the reason above, their gizzards are designed to grind stuff into tiny particles which then are much more reactive with stomach acid to form the lead salts that enter the bloodstream and poison them.

I still think the hysteria over lead bullets and shot is way overblown, but it is true that birds are more susceptible than mammals because of the way their digestive system works.

Yeah

That’s ACUTE lead poisoning, for sure.

Life changing event from a run in with a high speed lead projectile.

DF

Elemental lead combines with hydrochloric acid in your gut and then becomes absorbable. Raptors and other birds are affected by bullet fragments more so than other animals because they have gizzards that grind up the particles thus making more lead absorbed into the blood stream.
Blood tests are not really that useful for determining how much lead is in your body because lead moves from the blood stream into bones, teeth, brain and other organs where it hides out for along time.

I would just go with the 139gr LRX for both and call it good! It'll do the trick in both rifles at the range you listed. I used the 145LRX in my 7 RUM and killed 5 animals with it (2 buck WT, 2 doe and 1 pronghorn), only one made it further than another step and she was shot through the lungs and ran 30 yards. Distances were 125 to 411, no bullets recovered.

I'll buy that.

Google search.

Intoxication from an Accidentally Ingested Lead Shot Retained in the Gastrointestinal Tract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1278491/

Management of Lead Poisoning From Ingested Fishing Sinkers https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/189533

Doctors kill over 200,000 Americans with treatment every year. Not malpractice. Regimented proper treatment. No thanks....

Duck hunter, thanks! This discussion has gone far astray....and for the record I did not say I was an old country doctor, just a simple country doctor. I Don’t think I said anything about humans being poisoned,and I am not worried about me ingesting lead from animals I eat....we generally don’t eat the lungs etc. and cut away meat with fragment wounds. That said, I would always prefer to not have lead in my diet. BWalker, yes your explanation is what I was alluding to. The worst case of lead poisoning I’ve seen was in a boy with Down syndrome who had swallowed a lead sinker, which did not leave the stomach and thus was constantly exposed to acid. Crow Hunter, the only hysteria regarding lead bullets I’ve seen comes from people attacking those of us considering using lead free ammunition. Maybe I am unaware of other hysteria out there.

California is banning the use of lead in bullets, that's hysteria if you ask me and that's what I was referring to in my post. Other states are sure to follow suit. California comes up with all kinds of kooky laws that have a habit of spreading to other states and I don't want to see that happen here. I don't care what California does internally, I just don't want their ideas to spread like cancer to places I do care about.

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl for decades and because of the effect lead had on birds as discussed above it's probably necessary. In mammals small amounts of lead shot or bullet fragments usually pass harmlessly through the digestive system but as noted they can cause problems if they get stuck and exposed to stomach acid. I wouldn't want to make a habit of consuming handfuls of #6 shot but a pellet every now and then isn't going to hurt you.

I think the small number of bullets fired at big game makes the risks from lead core bullets in the landscape miniscule at best. Likewise I think worrying about lead in big game meat from one or two bullets after the meat is trimmed and processed is kind of crazy. I've never bitten into a piece of lead in venison, if someone has lead in their venison they're doing a pretty poor job of preparing it. I think maybe a case could be made that lead from high volume shooters like prairie dog hunters could be too much, but not big game hunters that might at most shoot a couple of rounds a year at game. There's a lot of dirt out there with a tiny amount of lead going into it.

I'm not arguing that lead in anything is good for you. I do think the current zero tolerance stance is hysteria because a tiny amount of lead with a small risk of being ingested isn't going to hurt anything and isn't worthy of the negatives from trying to remove lead from all ammo and fishing tackle. It's a miniscule risk that's being massively blown out of proportion.

I use Barnes not because they're lead free but because I like their performance. The fact that they're lead free is a bonus I guess you could say.

Not sure just how much trouble is caused to raptors (here, black and turkey vultures, bald eagles, and redtails) but with all the gutpiles to be found during the deer season, one would think that there'd be dead vultures found here and there, but the only ones I've seen were killed by cars while eating roadkill. At any rate, I use what shoots and kills well for me, be it copper or lead.

On a related note, my club was recently anonymously reported to the state Green Police over alleged contamination of a creek by lead from our shooting berms. The state and county experts came out and did a survey and found nothing. Just harassment, apparently.