Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters How many flinch? moved here

Yes. Both.

OK, when you're doing that do you "follow thru" with the shot?

David Tubb dry fires.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/shooting_tips_tubbs_tips_serious_dry_firing_021811/84057

So does Carl Bernosky, see item 3:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...bernosky-explains-how-to-shoot-standing/

I started out with my first centerfire rifle in 270 Winchester. No problem for a 22 year old fresh out of the military. I foolishly sold it and bought a Interarms Mark X in 300 Win Mag. One session off the bench and prone told me I wanted no part of this beast!!! Traded it for a M700 Remington in 243 and was very happy. Since then I have shot many different rifles and only when I get past 30-06 recoil do I start having some flinch issues. My "big boomers" are two 7mmWSM's, a 7mmRem Mag, 300 WinMag, and a 300SAUM. When shooting these with the heavier bullets I ust concentrate on not flinching. For me it's a matter of complete concentration and not pulling the trigger until my only thought is a clean trigger pull. I cannot recall ever flinching on a game animal, Thank You Lord!!!

I develope a flinch when I shoot my McMillan Mac 50, that's why I shoot my Barrett 82A1 more, easier on the shoulder. For some reason the Mac 50 hurts.

And that is a fair part of my previous point in which I referred to "focus". I do not personally focus on a clean trigger pull, but on the image of sight and target as I increase pressure on the trigger. It works for me, YMMV.

Another point I made was the matter of following thru. In respect to wing shooting, if you stop your swing when you pull the trigger you're at best a mediocre wing shot. You have to follow thru on the shot if you want to hit anything in the air and by that I mean you have to keep swinging the gun on target. It takes focus and concentration on the objective. Failure to do so is often the result of anticipating the recoil/blast. It has been my observation at the clays range that once a neophyte grasps that fundamental component of the art, frowns turn into smiles.

Perhaps the most effective path to learning how to follow thru with rifle shooting is use of a flintlock rifle. Truth is there isn't that much recoil associated with a flinter as they usually shoot round balls and BP isn't that energetic. That said, there remains a lot of chaos to deal with. Pan flash for one, long lock time and a slow trip down the barrel. If one does not "focus" on what the objective is when using one they will be deeply depressed at the results. YOU HAVE TO STAY ON TARGET! If you get it right you can do this offhand at 50 yards, or further if you're really good.



I'm not going to belabor this any longer, you guys can do what you wish in dealing with the flinch issue. You have my recipe for overcoming it, use it or ignore it as you see fit. With all respect to Mr. Tubbs, I haven't dry fired in a long while and won't ever again. Doing so is not part of my Rx.

My experience includes myself, obviously, but like Formidilosus also includes observing and helping train other people. Not to the extent he does, but probably more than the average Campfire member.

This experience indicates that almost anybody can flinch, and it can come and go, depending on the amount of shooting. But it also depends on what we're shooting. It's easy to shoot 1" groups at 100 yards with many rifles, or shoot moose consistently with pretty big magnum rounds. But that doesn't mean we're not flinching, to a greater or lesser degree.

I know it takes me a while to settle down during any range session where any sort of precision is required, especially if I haven't been to the range for a couple weeks. (My normal routine is at least twice a week.) That doesn't mean I'm not shooting sub-inch groups, but I know damn well the rifle isn't doing it's best until I really concentrate on the basics.

As for shotgunning, probably the best all-around shotgunner I've ever known (and shot clays and wild birds with) was Bob Brister. Like many shotgunners (most?) who shot tens of thousands of rounds per year for many years, he went to a release trigger, because he'd been "recoiled" so many times his subconscious refused to allow him to pull a standard trigger. This is not a "voluntary" response, as many people assume, especially those who believe shooting MORE hard-kicking ammo is the cure for a flinch. Instead it's protection from our own bodies against something that obviously doesn't feel good, and that protective reaction usually grows as we grow older, because we're less flexible. (Which is why professional quarterbacks don't usually last much beyond 40: Even if they can still pass very well, they start flinching when 250--300 pound people start charging them, once again.)

Studies going back 100+ years indicate this starts to occur in long guns when recoil goes over 20 foot-pounds, even in many younger shooters, if they shoot enough. One of my most interesting experiences occurred around 15 years ago, when a certain rifle company took a bunch of gun writers on a prairie dog shoot with a new sporter-weight .22-250 that weighed around 9 pounds scoped. Now, "everybody" knows a .22-250 doesn't kick enough to bother most people, but after firing around 600 rounds in maybe 4-5 hours, I eventually discovered the rifle had started to feel more like a .375 H&H when it went off. Which is why I was missing. So I switched to a .22 rimfire and, not so amazingly, still flinched a little for a few rounds before my subconscious realized it didn't feel like a .375.

I can still shoot my very accurate 7-1/2 pound .338 Winchester Magnum well enough to consistently put them into much less than an inch, or even my .416 Rigby. Can also drop geese consistently at 50+ yards with my 10-gauge magnum. But damned if I want to shoot any of them for 50 rounds, much less 600. Plus, I've also found that old cliche', that placement is far more important than "power" (whatever that means to you) is absolutely correct.

Now, back to our regular programming, especially for those who have never flinched in their lifetime.

When I was a teenager shooting a national match M-1 Garand in competition, my coach duped me with the old 'ball and dummy' trick during practice one day, to expose my flinching when shooting offhand. There were assorted witnesses. He said, "If you're not squeezing that trigger, this whole thing is a waste of your time, a waste of my time, and a G.D. waste of ammunition." 35 years later we are still friends.

That reminds me: the safeties on my lever guns works the same. It's pretty noticeable with the 444 when it's time for me to put it away and shoot something else. And I can get quite inwardly proud at times when I hear the hammer drop into the safety and my sights are still on target.

Actually, this is bull scat. A flinch is a learned response to a painful experience. I have taught several children, several grown women, and several more of my grandchildren to shoot without introducing any of them to a flinch. With the exception of my son, Who at 13 years, directly disobeyed explicit instructions to stay out of the full bore hunting loads for a Winchester synthetic black shadow model 70 in 300 Win mag.

I had prepared 100 rds of125 gr loaded to 2000 fps for him to train on. But he decided he knew more than Dad.

The next time we went to the bench rest, My tack driver Savage 112 in 22-250 was shooting 4 moa for him. I immediately knew exactly what he had done and to prove it I pretended to load the Savage and handed it back to him. The muzzle jumped a 1/4 inch when he pulled the trigger, and his eyes got very big.

Ball and dummy is ONE way to work through a flinch. There are others.

My first rifle was a Win 670 in 30-06 with a hard butt plate. I learned to shoot it with the open sights and factory 150 gr loads. And I learned to flinch.

I cured my self over the course of one summer with about 3000 rounds of 22lr and SEEING every pop can or soup can target target tip over in the scope. Filling the target containers with water helped in that regard. And then I moved up to a 22-250, a 26 in MIJ Wea Varmintmaster. It was heavy enough that with most loads I could see bullet impact through the scope.

I train the kids, and the ladies, "watch that target, see the bullet hit it". If you can see the bullet hit the target, you ain't flinching. We start with 22lr, then move toward light CF like a 243 w/ a 55 gr with a light powder charge and move up from there. These days I use spinners for 22lr and clay pigeons for cf targets.

Within a few weeks of meeting my wife, she was shooting full power 120 gr loads in the 25-06 and destroying plastic pop bottles at 300 yds as well as I and my buddies.

One young girl shot the 22 for years, from about age five, and shot the HMR. It was the Spring action reverse recoil of a 17 cal barrel break pellet rifle which, at age ten, almost made her start flinching. After the second shot and seeing her reaction to the gun, I took it away from her and gave her back her 22 single shot bolt rifle.

John, as usual a very thoughtful and informed dissertation.

In my previous post I did not get into extended range sessions. Yes, those do take a toll on the most experienced shooter, as does a torn rotator cuff.

Personally, I recognize the point when fatigue is coming on and I begin to dread the next pull of the trigger. That is usually a pretty good indication that it is time to quit, because shortly thereafter the gun seems to become much less accurate.

Just before I had my right shoulder repaired, I was down to ten rounds through a 260 rem w/ 120s before the pain made me put it away. I purchased a lead sled that year, just so I could still shoot a bit.

The shoulder is good enough today that I can stand to shoot 20 rounds through a Ruger 1b in 7STW with a 160 at 3200 fps. But that is my limit these days. It seems that I do enjoy the 22-250 and 243 much more than in my youth. And my larger caliber rifles seem to have gained weight, as in longer and much heavier barrels.

Age is a big factor. In my twenties, every other weekend I would head out to the grass hills with 200 rds for the 30-06, 100 each for the 22-250 and the 25-06. By the end of the day Saturday, I would be out of ammo, shooting at ground squirrels. And all of it was fired from prone position, belly in the dirt. Hell, today, I don't even want to think about getting down in the dirt, let alone putting 100 rnds through a light weight 30-06 while I am there.

I was 49 years old in May of 2000 when I worked up 45acp to 460 Rowland loads in a 16 oz Patriot pistol [Nehemiah Sirkis design].

I started shoving my shoulder forward every time I pulled the trigger.

I built a recoil spring assembly with 3 coil springs that added up to 42 pounds at the rear.

The flinch went away.

I’ve saw a lot improvement reducing flinch in myself when shooting magnums on paper and LR steel by improving my triggers to a 1.5-2lb crisp break...A poor trigger on a magnum will contribute to flinch and poor accuracy, obviously 🙄 😎

Somebody earlier mentioned the DI and squeeze the trigger. Often people speak of a surprise when the trigger breaks.

I find both thoughts antithetical to good marksmanship. I will easily shoot a three pound trigger but it has to break cleanly with no creep. I like the trigger to break with a thought, not a squeeze, and I want to choose the exact moment the rifle fires.

x2 ....... I'm 58 and am down the same road. I'll never say never but the 30-06 / 280 / 7x57 will do anything I need including moose hunting so for now will hold there.

On the smaller end, the 257R gets funner and funner to shoot every year.

SuperCub I have the same. a: 7x57, 280, and 30-06. The 280 and 30-06 get used less and less every year. capt david

I have a couple of rifles with good, externally adjustable triggers. More than once when I caught myself feeling flinchy I increased the pull weights. I was better able to concentrate on squeezing with 2 1/2 pounds than 1 1/2 pounds.

The 7x57 is a fairweather Ruger #1 whereas the others have fiberglass stocks more suited to foul weather and rough use. The FN98 3006 will be replaced with a lightweight 308.

I think the 308 and 7x57 are almost identical in what they can do. There's a slight nod in bullet diameter to the 308 with the nod to the 7x57 in BC % SD. capt david

Don't assume the 308 will kick less than the 30-06.
The 308 is right on the bigger guns heels balistically.
If it's in a light rifle, it can pass the '06, right quick.


I shoot a Rem 660 in a Brown Pounder.
165gr, and it likes a stiff load.

Most who have shot it, say "That thing kick hard for a 308."
Well, if it was a similar weight/length '06, they would expect it.

And a 660 isn't even a lightweight any more.