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#13338157 - 12/06/18 Winchester 1873 action strength  
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Fotis Offline
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Ok guys, I have a question, how can a Winchester 1873 be able to handle 35000 p s I when chambered in 357 Magnum and only 16000 when chambered in my 44-40? I mean it is the same action, so what's the difference?


By the way, this is purely an academic question, but I'm very, very curious. And I am talking about modern recently made 1873s


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#13347343 - 12/09/18 Re: Winchester 1873 action strength [Re: Fotis]  
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Ultimately the toggle link is the weak point in the 60/66/73 design. Though modern metallurgy is better than the original brass and iron used in these designs

Rearward bolt thrust varies from cartridge to cartridge, depending on surface area of the cartridge to chamber contact, chamber shape, friction, bullet weight, etc. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Pressure is only one consideration. The heavier the bullet, the more rearward thrust. Some case designs cling to the chamber more readily when the case expands against the walls. Rate of powder burn and pressure curve of the burn, etc.

Most of those old cartridges are limited in pressure more to protect the original arms they were chambered in than limitations of the components available today. Remember, these were originally black powder offerings. Some of the cases are thinner as true to the original design.

Without considering the rifle, the .357 cartridge itself and the components used in it were designed to operate under higher pressure.

Last edited by Frontiersman; 12/09/18.

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#13348311 - 12/10/18 Re: Winchester 1873 action strength [Re: Fotis]  
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Fotis Offline
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Thanks Makes sense


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#13349120 - 12/10/18 Re: Winchester 1873 action strength [Re: Fotis]  
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It is all about advanced metallurgy with replicas made today (both lever rifles and SA revolvers). The 44-40 was introduced in 1873. It was a popular duel carry cartridge as both rifles and revolvers were chambered in it. Pressures in the 44-40 at 16,000 psi were most likely held for many of the revolvers used in the day. Having a rifle in the same cartridge as your revolver was a real nice attribute and the 44-40 was extremely popular for that use. Even so, I'm guessing the rifles of the day could of handled a bit more pressure than the revolvers of the day.

#13353237 - 12/12/18 Re: Winchester 1873 action strength [Re: Fotis]  
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Originally Posted by Fotis
Ok guys, I have a question, how can a Winchester 1873 be able to handle 35000 p s I when chambered in 357 Magnum and only 16000 when chambered in my 44-40? I mean it is the same action, so what's the difference?


By the way, this is purely an academic question, but I'm very, very curious. And I am talking about modern recently made 1873s


I guess you hadn't heard....

Uberti 1873 .44 Magnum

Obviously metallurgy has changed by leaps and bounds in the last century.

35WN


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#13363787 - 12/15/18 Re: Winchester 1873 action strength [Re: Fotis]  
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Mike_S Online content
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I read somewhere that one weakness in tubular magazine rifles is the space between the barrel and magazine on the receiver.

It seems that the receiver failed before the toggles did.

Last edited by Mike_S; 12/15/18.
#13376334 - 12/19/18 Re: Winchester 1873 action strength [Re: Fotis]  
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I going to guess the pressure difference between the .357 mag and the .44-40 is because the .44-40 case is prone to split under higher pressures. Just a guess, but I've shot alot of reloaded .44-40 and they do split rather easily.


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#13394269 - 12/26/18 Re: Winchester 1873 action strength [Re: Fotis]  
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Quote
AS THEY SAY..... "A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS" and here are pics that indicate that a barrel has let go and the ACTIONS ARE SILL INTACT!! For you non engineering types, the cartridge locks itself somewhat in the chamber which lessens the rearword thrust on the bolt. I did a test similar to Trailrider (Thank you) and found that the case head did not contact the bolt upon ignition and that only the primer did.

From the recent issue of Winchester Collector - 1873 Barrel obstruction~John Kort


Quote
Concerning the strength of togglelink actions, I ran some tests for an article published in either "Handloader" or "Rifle" magazine, years ago, using smokeless powders, primarily Unique. At one point, I removed one link. I couldn't tell that it had been removed! I removed both links! The action opened about half-way (I did NOT attempt to hold the lever closed). When I first obtained the rifle, before doing these tests, I examined the original links and discovered that one was cracked at the "elbow" joint. Navy Arms had just introduced their Italian-made '73, and I contacted Val Forgett, who was kind enough to send me a pair of the replica togglelinks, which I installed in my rifle. Aside from a little fitting, they fit perfectly. Aside from the accuracy problems due to the .434" groove diameter barrel (not worn, just oversized...very common to Winchester '73's), the rifle was good to go. The thing about radial pressures on the inside of the chamber/barrel is that even with the different pressure-time curves that smokeless powders generate compared to BP, it is the backthrust on the bolt that is the main issue. With the loads listed in the Lyman handbook, the backthrust, with modern brass, isn't that great. I'm not advocating the use of smokeless powder, especially for those rifles made prior to the mid-1880's, but if carefully followed, it shouldn't be a problem. [NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE USE OF THE ABOVE INFORMATION IN GUNS OTHER THAN MY OWN, AND MAYBE NOT THEN! Usual disclaimer.]~Trailrider

Last edited by SavvyJack; 12/26/18.
#13394299 - 12/26/18 Re: Winchester 1873 action strength [Re: Fotis]  
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SavvyJack Offline
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When Winchester first offered Smokeless powder loads back in 1895, their 44WCF cartridges boxes had a new Red label. On this label were the words "for Winchester Model 1873'". On the side label were the words, "NOT FOR PISTOLS" meaning the black powder revolvers was the "weak link".

#13412970 - 01/01/19 Re: Winchester 1873 action strength [Re: Fotis]  
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GSSP Offline
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I have a new Uberti 1873 Comanchero (Taylor) in 45 Colt and a 20" octagon barrel, I used this past year in SASS matches. Decided SASS was not for me so decided to hunt it one time before selling it. Looking at all the 230 gr/14000 psi data I could find, I tested 15 different powders with my own 230 FN LBT bullet I cast. I also tested 9 different powders with my own 283 gr WFN LBT bullet I cast. For that data I used Brian Pearce's RCBS 45-270-SAA (284-285 gr) load data in the April 2007 issue of Handloader magazine. I settled on the 283 WFN with Longshot, running 1176 fps. One could eat right up to the hole that bullet made when it sailed right through the mulie doe I took a few weeks back. That's a load I'd use on an elk.

Alan

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#13462829 - 01/17/19 Re: Winchester 1873 action strength [Re: Fotis]  
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I own a very nice 73, 44-40, made in the early 1880's as well as a modern Uberti 73 in 45 Colt. I bought the later rifle because I heard to many horror stories of racing the old original 73's beyond their intended pressures. For me the best load for the original Winchester is a full load of PB pushing a 200 grain lead bullet. This load has put a lot of venison in the freezer. The Uberti I do shoot smokeless, but still I do not race this rifle due to the weak toggle design. For the hotter 44-40 I shoot my original 1892 and smile every time I pull the trigger.


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