Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Wolves sport killing elk in Idaho.....need some help posting.

Waha....good on ya' thanks for your work and good luck!

crick.... obviously the best answer is to spread 100% of Idaho's wolves over the remaining 99.8% of the us. the appropriate ratio of wolves can be reached throughout the us and then we can figure out if they are really needed in big numbers.

kinda makes me think of california and the cougar. they go totally anti hunting on the big cats, the big cats start killing people.....they kill the problem cats. Why is it not ok to do the same with wolves? if they are out of control.....control them.

bigwhoop- some minor correction. As yet, the wolves being reduced in several specific areas are not being taken by state aircraft /gunners. The state permits designated private pilot/gunner fixed wing aircraft for this purpose. The teams' recompense is only in the hides.

Second - this is not a "bounty". It is payment for "scientific samples" (left front leg), from which age and condition can be monitored. (Sort of like Defenders of Wildlife and Alaska Wildlife Alliance and Sierra Club are not "anti-hunting" organizations. Can you hear the 8&&^5( ** howling?)

Should the desired take not be achieved in the next couple weeks, state choppers/gunners may yet be used.

1# I'm not a wolf lover, but did anybody eles notice that there are no wounds on the legs in most the pic's. I see lots of places were normally you'll see any predator will start to eat a carcus. Are there any pic's of wolf tracks near the carcus?
Finding dead elk in winter range is nothing new.

Maybe some of the Ak. guys that have seen some wolf kills could comment on the pic.

Man,what a kettle of fish!I do not live in wolf country,but they may be here soon,since there is talk among the eco fascists to reintroduce them in Maine.Personally, I believe there were good reasons why the wolves were exterminated in the lower 48 in the early part of the last century.My personal view is that these large carnivores belong in true wilderness areas only;if they want to confine them to that Disneyland animal- viewing charade known as Yellowstone, that's fine;but I think they should be shot on site outside the park.

I've always had the sneaky feeling that the wolf reintro has,as its roots, a very strong anti-hunting sentiment deeply entrenched in the US Fish and Wildlife Service,which I suspect gives lip-service only to the hunters of this country.Packs of wolves, left unchecked for decades while we wrangle in an endless labyrynth of red tape,false information,and perpetual court battles, will have the desired effect of decimating big game populations as it appears they have done in the areas around Yellowstone,and certain areas of Idaho.If the elk represent a population problem of some sort,it always made sense to control them through well-regulated hunting by humans;I cannot for the life of me understand the reintroduction of a wide-ranging,prolific,destructive predator in the lower 48 to run roughshod through wildlife populations conserved and paid for solely through sportsmens dollars for decades.To my mind it represents a slap in the face to the hunters of this country by an entrenched bureaucracy intent on the destruction of an American institution.

I,ve hunted in central Canada lots of times;there is no limit on wolves in Alberta,far as I know,and instructions were always to shoot as many as you can;yet there seems to be plenty of them.The problem with the lower 48 is that (I'm going out on a limb here) there is really no TRUE wilderness left;not in the sense that Canada and Alaska has it.IMHO we'd better start hunting these damn things ( I favor "shoot on site" outside the Park)and while we are on the subject, I think they should start hunting the grizzlies again,too.I'm a little tired of the anthropomorphic nonsense we're fed by the nature-fakers,who wring their hands because the "...mother wolf failed to kill today,so her cub will go hungry..." Sportsmens dollars and conservation efforts over the last 80-100 years put those elk there;not the entrenched bureaucrats hell-bent on jamming these killing machines down our collective throats.If they disappeared again tommorrow I would not miss them.If I want to see one,I'll go to Canada.

Early 1800's? What USSC case was that?

I've started coming to the same conclusion. I believe there is definitely a segment among the pro-wolfers who see any reduction in human hunting as a benefit to increased wolf populations. Look at it this way, the wolves do't have to eliminate whole herds. All that has to happen is for the hunting opportunity to be reduced to the point that tags are harder and harder to get. Then you have fewer and fewer people wanting to hunt and hunter political power is greatly reduced. We need rich game herds to keep our sport alive politically.

btw - I think you will see wolves in Maine soon enough. I also believe there will be populations established in the Appalachians as well. Just a matter of time. Eastern hunters need to wake up and realize this is not just a western problem.



It is certainly true the wolves don't know what the "Wilderness" boundaries are.

Walkingman:You get my drift.

I can't find it--I'm on the wrong side of the mountain for the next week or so.

Here is the case that the USSC "modified" about 10-20 years later. Both cases are important states rights cases, but the USSC reserved certain rights to the feds in the later case.

Corfield v. Coryell 6 Fed. Cas. 546, no. 3,230 C.C.E.D.Pa. 1823

Casey

Just keep in mind, waha quoting Dr. Valerius Geist is kinda' interesting--Geist is one of the early wolf researchers, considered to be the predator-prey expert in North America, his data was used to model wolf population affects and growth in the Yellowstone restoration, and he is an advocate of a balanced ecosystem--including wolves. I know, I have attended his seminar.

Casey

You should go back and read previous threads and my posts over the last year or so. It is tough when when a guy has to keep repeating himself to others that haven't been in on previous discussions..........

Casey

the balance of the ecosystem in yellowstone is in fair standing. a decent number of animals of all species can be observed....true for sure.











where do the hunters fit in to the balance?

jellystone is a mighty big place for a very select few to hunt. If the rest of the country goes to a similar balance compared to yellowstone.....I am going to be eating trophy sage brush.

Casey,

Sorry bud but you have no credibility here. It's obvious you have
a liberal left wing agenda. You have some education and some
knowledge, you have only used that to be condescending of others and dangerous to yourself. Some would call that being a troll and you are.
If anybody has a different idea than you, you tell them they are
narrow minded haters. That's not very nice.

You have a way of turning people off if not against you.

No, I don't think I would want you in my hunting camp. I'm sure
you would not want me in yours as well. That's fine.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Will we ever get so fed up with the govt. and take matters into our own hands ? This situation is intolerable.

Three kinds of people exist:

One who watches things happen.
One who asks what happened ?
And one who makes things happen.

Time to put aside the ineffective govt. and make things happen. Sportsmen need to SSS and leave it at that. Just my 2 cents.

Rather than sport killing this could be called poaching wolves.

How many wolves do you fellas figure would get killed using fair chase methods and a limited quota license system? Very, very, few, that's how many. The only way to control wolf #'s at all is through trapping, poisoning, or aerial gunning/snowmobiling. In 10 years of calling in very good wolf country I saw 2 wolves approach the call and one of them couldn't have been shot had I been allowed to - not a real high % game. In other words I'm pretty curious as to how you fellas figure on hunting wolves. Another problem with the issue lies in the probability that wolves will be designated big game here in MT which means that trapping them will not be allowed, taking away the only truly viable means of controlling the population.

Hunting is not going to be the same in my area in my lifetime and we still have our two legged critters doing there harm to a dwindling Elk herd.


Between the Wolves and the Poachers,both killing for the thrill only,I think we ought to take the poachers and chain 'em to a tree in Wolf country with a poodle yippin in there lap.Let them take care of each other.

Jayco

This just occured to Dr. Val Geist on Vancouver Island this week.

March 26th 2007 (significantly updated!)

Confrontation between John and Anita Oosterom, their two old dogs Niki and Tia, and 5 wolves, at about 8:30 AM, about 500 yds from our house, where Renate and I had been attacked by the large black bear male. (Anita and John are our next neighbors, living about 300 yds away).

Anita and John went out with their dogs for a morning-hike through the forest and meadows on their land, as they often do. The two old dogs ran about 40 yds ahead. They had just entered the forest and were hiking briskly, when they heard the dog vocalizing and aggressive snarling. John said right away �Wolves!� He ran ahead and, rounding a corner into a roadway, he saw right in front of him 5 wolves attacking Kia. Old Kia was by then on the ground. John grabbed hold of a cedar branch and advanced on the wolves, while Anita took shelter in the cab of an excavator who happened to be standing close by. The wolves paid primarily attention to the dog, which was able to get behind John. However, one wolf advance twice towards John with teeth bare and snarling. He remained standing staring at John as John withdrew. This wolf then remained on the spot till John was out of sight. The other four had backed off. John had to quickly raise the branch and stepped forward � repeatedly, which held the aggressive wolf back. That is, only one wolf advanced on John, the other four retreated. With the dog behind him, John went backwards towards the excavator and four of the five the wolves went � reluctantly - the other way.

Tia was lightly wounded and bleeding from the right front leg. John had been within 6-10 feet of the wolves. He quipped: �They were so close I could see their fillings�
Anita commented right away on the large teeth of the wolves (as the most aggressive wolf snarled at John, its teeth bare).

Anita came at once to us and asked for help while John went to get this rifle. I was in my morning attire as we had finished breakfast and I expected to do some work on the computer, but got dressed and got a rifle, and went out again with Anita and John and the two dogs looking for wolves. We did not see them again. The dogs stuck closely to us all the time. Both, Anita and John were quite jovial and displayed gallows humor.

All five wolves were light gray. Since we have heard of a black wolf, there may be more than five in the pack or there are two packs close by! None of these wolves had the rich yellow/black markings the previous pack had, nor the furs I saw in Mike Stini�s taxidermy shop.

I went out looking for the wolves in the evening of the 26th , but saw nothing.

John with son and two friends also went out, just as I left. Where I last sat, observing the upper end of the meadows, at dusk 5 wolves emerged. John fired a long shot at a wolf. The wolf stumbled, fell, but ran off. These wolves had been encountered minutes earlier by two teenagers on quads on the log-train trail. The wolves moved down into the forest, leaving the kids very excited.

March 27th 2007

In the early morning of the 27th John went out again with Anita and the two dogs for a morning walk, but this time he carried a rifle (243 Savage, Mod. 99). Just beyond where they were confronted the morning before by the wolves, they noticed that the dogs suddenly became very active sniffing and investigating, but stuck to them. About 100 yds beyond that point the road leads out of the forest into the meadows. And there, in light morning fog, he saw the pack of 5 wolves. They drifted towards the timber about 200 paces away when the old dog Tia barked. At once the wolves reversed and advanced. John shot the boldest wolf at exactly 100 yds � going by the survey marker in the meadow. The wolf was killed instantly by a neck-shot. The others ran off.

The wolf downed was a male weighing 71 lbs (32.3 kg). He was colored like a wolf from the continent, missing the black streak down the front legs common to Vancouver Island wolves. This wolf had somewhat atypical pads as they were concave. Renate and I took pictures of the wolf, which John brought to the farm on a quad. Later, when Katharine (Kasha) Thompson examined the wolf, she found a fresh injury just breaking the skin on his lower jaw. That�s where John�s bullet of the night before had gone! Consequently, though shot at and hit, the wolf the next morning advanced boldly towards John and Anita attracted by the dog (Kia). That wolf had learned nothing from being shot, wounded and shouted at the day before!

I notified Mike Stern the conservation officer who came out, but he was beaten to it by Julia Carnanci of the Port Alberni Times, who took photos and interviewed John. I sent her by e-mail my article �Some information for out-door people in areas where wolves have become common�.

Very clearly, having been shot (creased) in the evening of the 26th, even when wounded lightly, did not preclude the wolves from advancing with some determination once again on John and Anita (with Kia) on the morning of the 27th.

The wolf was shot almost exactly 700 yds from our house.

28th March

The Alberni Valley Times, Wednesday 28, 2007 carried a good story about this event. It made the front page (Julia Carnanci, Beware of Wolves, Beaver Creek Man Confronted by Pack Kills One).

A camera crew arrived led by camera man Garry Fang, a lady reporter, and John went over the matter including a hike in the back country. Earlier on John and Kasha sat down with me and recorded by voice their earlier adventures with wolves. This tape thus augments all the e-mails written by myself about wolves here in earlier years.

Alpinelick, You need to be very careful what you claim Dr Geist believes in. You may have attended a seminar years ago but I and a few others communicate with him almost daily regarding this issue.
This letter to me clearly clarifies Dr Geist's opinion of how wolves effect ecosystems.


Geist, V.

PORT ALBERNI, BC, V9Y 7M2
Canada



Vancouver Island Wolves.

Dear Steve,

The last of the wolf pack that occupied us since their arrival here in summer 1999 is now and so its time to finish off the story. It�s a narrative account, not a scientific paper. It all fell upon us, very suddenly and without warning. Had I known what I know now, I would have taken census data and organized systematic data collecting. It did not happen because I had no idea what was to unfold. So, read it and if you want to publish it feel free to do so.

Nothing prepared me for the experiences with Vancouver Island wolves, not the writing of colleagues, nor my own observations during years of field work, especially two winters in northern British Columbia. Wolves came through my Stone�s sheep study are then every two weeks. Since timberline was low, I was afforded splendid opportunities for observation. In retrospect it appears that had I taken the European literature more seriously that I might have been better prepared. However, I had assumed that literature to be irrelevant to an understanding of North American wolves.

When I was a graduate student in the early 1960�s, Vancouver Island wolves were so scarce that their very existence was doubted. Then in the 1970�s wolves became common and swept the island north to south. The hunter harvest of black-tailed deer dropped from about 25,000 deer annually to the current level of about 3,000. Nevertheless, during the many summer vacations on the island from 1958-1995, we heard virtually nothing of wolves. There were reports of occasional sightings of single wolves, but little else and there was no obvious publicity.

When after retirement in 1995 we moved to Vancouver Island I was keen to find out if wolves were in our vicinity. We bough an acreage at the edge of the farming district north of Port Alberni, only a few miles south of the boundaries of Strathcona Provincial Park. Two salmon creeks traverse our land. It adjoins a dairy farm and it in turn a farm where initially pigs, but later sheep and cattle were being raised. Large meadows, well fertilized, repeatedly cut for ensilage and hay and grazed by livestock, extend in the valley flanked by dense second-growth, often swampy forests of red cedar, red alder, broad-leaf maple, cotton wood, Sitka spruce, hemlock, Douglas firs etc. Whenever there was a snow blanket, usually a most temporary one, we searched the area for tracks. In this extensive meadow system and the adjacent forests I found in December 1995 possibly one wolf track, and none in 1996, 1997 and 1998. In January 1999 my son Karl and I found a pair of what appear to be wolf tracks in a pocket of dense black-tailed deer activity about three miles from our house. We then suspected that a pack might be forming. It did. A wolf pack arrived in late summer 1999. The ultimate origin of the wolves is very likely Strathcona Provincial Park, a large class A provincial park in which there is no hunting, where wolves currently co-exist with elk.

Since our and our neighbor�s land bordered on crown land and extensive private forest lands, our lands formed an edge with fairly wild, but young second-growth forests. These flanked the Beaufort Range which rises sharply about one km from our house to a height of 5000 feet (Mount Joan). From 1995 to 1999 the forest edges of this large meadow system disgorged small groups of deer every night. Census counts and track counts in snow indicted about 120 deer in the meadow systems, with some 40-50 in a series of meadows close by. This suggested a density of about 30-40 deer per square mile. These were rather small-bodied black-tailed deer who struggled with liver flukes and with unknown infections as revealed on by greatly enlarged spleens. The deer emerged in much the same locations which I will term the �hotspots� and they came as well-spaced groups of does and fawns; bucks were rarely seen. The eastern edge of this area bordered on second growth Douglas fir forests, and the western part on barns and residences on acreages. These were almost free of deer as deer apparently respected the many dogs kept on farms and by households. Black bears were sighted very often and consistently. A number of huge males had taken up residence in the valley, keeping females out except at mating time. In late spring bears could be counted on to appear daily. Cougars were present, but invisible. In winter some 50-80 trumpeter swans could be found daily in these meadows, as well as large flocks of widgeons numbering several hundreds, about 50-70 mallards, a dozen green-winged teal and a sporadic smattering of other ducks, including wood ducks and diving ducks that rested on several small ponds. Feral eastern cottontails were making their presence known. Raccoons were uncommon, as were mink and otter. Ruffed grouse and pheasants were initially not rare. Among song birds, starlings, brewers and red winged black birds, formed large flocks as did band-tailed pigeons which favored chicken feed in our chicken coops. There were seasonally large swarms of crows, and a good many ravens year round. Turkey vultures were summer residents. Bald eagles were initially very common. Red-tailed hawk, Goshawk, Cooper�s and sharp-shinned hawk, pigeon- and marsh hawks were occasional visitors. Great blue herons and night herons were common. We counted some 70 bird species from our kitchen window. In spring time the countryside rings with the chorus of tree frogs and western spotted frogs. Much of the animal life centered about the agricultural activities, especially about disturbed soils that generate fertility spots heavily exploited by wildlife. The closely managed cattle farm is particularly attractive to wild life. The creeks carried runs of Coho salmon as well as steel heads and ocean-run cutthroat trout. The salmon were avidly preyed on by bears in late fall. These were not shy about harvesting our fruit trees with rather severe pruning.

The wolf pack made its presence known by July 1999 and deer sightings dropped precipitously, reaching virtually zero in the large meadows by October. Only an occasional fresh track still betrayed a deer, even in the rutting season when deer are exceptionally active. Night observations revealed deer hugging barns and staying in meadows close to the very buildings they had previously avoided. Dogs were attacked by wolves and several were killed or severely wounded even though some owner�s rushed in to save their dogs. Two dairy cow were found long after the fact, and a third one had to be put down having been severely injured about udder, ual organs and . A wolf injured a newborn calf and its dam within 200 paces of the cow barns. The calf was rescued by the hired man on the farm, who rushed it to the barn on a quad. The wolf followed right to the barn. The injured heifer (a clearly visible cut on the inside of the tarsus of the right hind leg) subsequently limped, and when resting isolated herself from the herd and lay down at the forest edge or within shrubbery. Of the three cattle kills that could be attributed to wolves, two were of cattle which apparently made their last stand in a deep pocket of a drainage ditch in water. The third one was run into the corner of a pasture against barb wire, beside a gate, where she was cornered and mutilated. A few cattle returned with docked tails and slit ears. There were many sheep kills. One neighbor saw a wolf appear in his yard and make off with a turkey.

While there was great tolerance for bears and cougars in the neighborhood, and initially some denial that wolves were the cause of the and mutilated cattle, this attitude changed in part because the wolves soon acted brazen. They did not flee from people, but stood or sat and looked them over, ran past them at short distances or approached to investigate. They approached and followed people mounted on horseback and were photographed doing so. This accelerated to the point in three instances of single wolves approaching and barking and howling at people from as close as 15 paces away. One of those people was my wife (two instances) and the other my next-door neighbor. I was the subject of a deliberate intercept once by the largest of the wolves. He saw me, ducked into timber then circled to intercept, howling twice at me, before stepping out on the road about 50 paces off, clearly interested. Our eyes met and he fled across the road.

When attacking dogs the wolves acted as if oblivious of the owners who could hardly dissuade the wolves by shouting and hand waving, and in extreme cases driving between wolf and dogs with a motorcycle or tractor or firing a shotgun � repeatedly - at wolves. This matched reports I received - privately - from a fellow wildlife biologist, and it matched with a previous publication about wolves on Vancouver Island. Also, the wolves became oblivious to gunfire. That summer, two wolves apparently habituated on a camp ground on Vargas Island off Tofino, attacked a camper and injured him seriously before the wolves were driven off by other campers. The two wolves were shot and proved to be healthy on inspection and filled with deer fawns. A road to our back meadow, previously a favorite route for leisurely walks with children was no longer used by people, except such mounted on or in some vehicle. When walking our dogs, I went armed.

Initially dogs and cattle responded noticeably to the presence of wolves. The cattle bunched, ran and even broke through fences and hastened from the meadows to the barns. Yet these very cattle would follow closely or even chase black bears. When we heard the first wolf howling our very large Bouvier des Flandre female, whined and tried to get into the basement for shelter. On our walks, the dogs stuck to us closely during portions of the walk. This was not usual behavior.

A decade earlier a wolf showed up and precipitated similar actions by cattle, a few of which also lost the end of their tail. This wolf was shot as it fled, and matters returned to normal. Another long time resident described earlier visits by wolves, as well as his a wolf out of a pack of seven, and another large male at short distance while grouse hunting as it stood and stared at him. Wolves were thus episodic visitors to this meadow complex. Standing up to people was a recurring theme.

In 1999 three wolves were trapped by the predator control officer on the farm with sheep. One wolf was killed by a duck hunter whose dog was attacked in his presence by three wolves. He wounded a second wolf and it may have been the same wolf whose skeleton was found subsequently. I shot one of two wolves that appeared together, a female wolf.

In 2000 three wolves were taken by the control officer. My neighbor shot two wolves and I shot one.

In 2001 there were present two wolves. Trapping failed, though two traps were sprung and had been dragged off. My neighbor shot a large male wolf which was sent to the US Fish & Wildlife Service forensic laboratory in Ashland, Oregon. I shot a wolf, who dropped at the shot, but ran of subsequently, not to be found despite extensive searching by two neighbors and myself with a dog. This wolf reappeared in late summer 2002, limping, with a healed but poorly functioning right front-leg. I saw him three times and my neighbor saw him twice. We had an informal agreement not to shoot him as this wolf had been seen fraternizing with sheep dogs, a rarely observed occurrence. This wolf made an appearance early in the morning on February 28th in front of our house, where he barked at my wife. He might have been attracted by one of our female dogs which was then in heat. This wolf was shot by a sheep farmer on March 12th 2003 and was turned over to BC Fish and Wildlife for further analysis. That was apparently the last wolf about. However, we had tracked in winter 2001/2002 a pack of four wolves who paid here a short visit.

Although bears and cougars were largely innocuous, bear and cougar problems erupted in 1999 when four bears were killed and in 2000 when an additional four bears were dispatched � none by a hunter. It is surmised that poor berry crops precipitated break ins by bears into sheep sheds, poultry barns, hog pens as well as brazen appearances in orchards � all very close to houses. One bear was run over by a truck and seven were trapped or shot. All of these bears were exceptionally large males. One huge, but very shy male survived, as did several smaller males. One large male confronted my wife and myself and while he survived that encounter he disappeared and was apparently shot while breaking into livestock pens. In 1999 two apparently starving cougar yearlings settled down to a cat-lover�s pets and were dispatched by the predator control officer. A third cougar yearling was killed by hunters after it settled in among houses and even killed a deer in a barn. Thus in four years there were killed within a 2 km circle around our house 13 wolves, eight bears and three cougars.

The effect of wolves on wildlife was not only direct, but also indirect. The sheep operation acquired five herding dogs, three of breeds that were bred to keep wolves away. These dogs chased not only deer from the meadows used by sheep, but also from adjacent meadows. They made life intolerable for deer over about three quarters of the observation area. Their roaming could be observed directly as well as tracked in the snow. These dogs all but eliminated deer and bear activity within their radius of operation. When wolves were about the dogs moved up to a kilometer from the sheep to confront wolves in prolonged barking matches. Eventually, they were seen � repeatedly - to fraternize with wolves. The last wolf shot was sitting among the sheep dogs.

Since we had three and a half years of observations when there were no wolves about, we were able to compare the before and after when wolves were present, as well as the following effects of the absence of a wolf pack or only the sporadic appearance of a single wolf. The deer deserted the areas hunted by wolves and moved into the close presence of people and houses � despite dogs. That is, while deer formerly avoided the areas closely patrolled by farm dogs, they now accepted the presence of dogs and now lived closely about human habitation. The deer were largely night active when most dogs are safely in houses. While we experienced no deer damage to our orchard, ornamentals and garden, when the wolves were absent (1995-1999) such damage rose sharply and severely in the presence of wolves. In the following years the antler size of bucks increased noticeably as did their body condition. The deer became tame and brazen, particularly in establishments with no dogs or no effective guard dogs. A fraternal group of bucks formed in 2000 which lived among buildings and was very active, but strictly at night. Only exceptionally were these bucks seen at dusk and dawn. In the fall of 2001, after the last wolf had been shot (injured), deer began to appear in the ecological �hotspots� again. The survival of fawns through the winter of 2001/2002 was very high, as was the survival of fawns the following year. The differences were dramatic! Still, now that deer recovery is in progress the number of deer which was about 120 before the wolves arrived is currently about 20. This, however, does not count the deer which now live permanently among houses and barns. These amount in my observation area to another 20 deer.

With the arrival of wolves in the large meadows, the trumpeter swans abandoned these in 1999/2000, and did not return for two years till the winter of 2001/2002 when there was no resident wolf pack present. The same meadows were also abandoned by ducks and Canada geese. When the first deer started to re-appear about the meadows following the absence of wolves, so did a few ducks and geese. The return of the Trumpeter swans was dramatic as the same number of swans were seen last winter as in the last winter before the wolves came, about 70-80 swans. However, ducks and geese used small meadows close to the barns even when wolves were present. When the injured lone wolf returned, the trumpeter swans again left the meadows and the deer became very alert.

It appeared that the longer the wolves stayed, the more they were shot at and missed, the bolder they became. The sheep appeared to be a primary attraction. The sheep dogs and wolves developed a dear enemy syndrome, and we learned to differentiate the nightly barking of the dogs when they were up against wolves as opposed to harassing a bear or deer. After sunset the dogs rushed out to the eastern edge of the meadows where these met the tall forest along the mountain slope. Here developed vigorous extended barking and an occasional howling. At dusk on October 19, 2001, when only a lone wolf remained, I observed him fraternizing with the sheep dogs. Fraternization had been observed a number of times by the owners of the sheep. In September 2002, when the same wolf returned, there was evidence of extreme interest in the wolf by the same dog that was most friendly towards the wolf in the fall previous. The sheep remained a source of attraction to the lone wolf. We found two stray sheep apparently killed and eventually eaten by a wolf in the winter of 2001/2002. We tracked this wolf repeatedly heading towards the sheep farm, where he was seen repeatedly with the dogs by our neighbor and was eventually shot while sitting among the sheep dogs.

It is important to note that deer, outside suburbs, cities and farmsteads are very rare animals. Vancouver Island has been subjected to extensive clear-cut logging which has removed the type of old growth forests that deer depend on in winter. Where such patches were left, deer concentrated and apparently attracted mountain lions, wolves and black bears. The latter are thought to be efficient fawn predators. In late spring 2000, 2001 and 2002 I spent eight (8) evenings scouting for black bears in forested mountains west of Port Alberni. I saw a total of 45 bears, about 60 elk, but only one deer, a young doe. Even deer tracks were exceptional in the vast logged off areas. A combination of loss of winter range and greater susceptibility to predation is thought to have eliminated black-tailed deer in the hinterlands of the island. Fellow biologists recount how after the arrival of deer skeletons littered the forest. A small, but thriving elk population is thought to maintain wolves, which then eliminate pockets of deer wherever such develop. This would account for the episodic appearance of wolf packs.

These wolves were different in external appearance and acted differently from northern gray wolves. They were yellow with black markings, giving at a distance a mottled dark gray appearance not unlike some German shepherd dogs. They were small, weighing 60-72 lbs. They had the large webbed paws of wolves. Their appearance was not unlike that of other coastal wolves. A large male wolf analyzed morphometrically was in all respects a wolf. It had no characteristics of dogs, although it sported a number of idiosyncrasies in the skull. A genetic analysis is in progress. Of three other Vancouver Island wolves two had mtDNA typical of domestic dogs. These wolves howled little and never loud. They barked considerably like dogs. They were hard to dissuade in their attacks on dogs, and feeding on such right in front of houses, harassing dogs almost under a veranda despite loud protests by my neighbor, chasing dogs under a moving tractor, attacking dogs right in front of one or several persons, and being persistent enough even when my neighbor drove with a motor bike between his dogs and the attacking wolf. They were not shy, even brazen, were not readily discouraged by human presence, and even approached people to very close range howling and barking, or followed these, barking at them. These experiences match that of other persons on Vancouver Island.

What appears to have happened is that wolves build up, virtually eliminated their primary prey, black-tailed deer, and then through food shortages grew small in body and became emboldened to approach farms and houses for food. Our wolf observations thus resemble those reported from Eurasia. Had there been enough wild prey, it is unlikely that wolves would have targeted livestock and pets or brazenly approached and threatened humans. What we experienced is likely to repeat itself wherever wolves severely deplete their prey. And this is likely to happen where governments are afraid to take appropriate steps early and succumb to �nature knows best� notion, as it keeps them out of trouble with vociferous elements of the public. The best management approach would be to intervene early and maintain a viable predator/ prey system with a large ratio of prey to predators.

You absolutely do not need wolves for a balanced ecosystem in the lower 48. We do not want nor need any ecosystem in the lower 48 restored to pre-settlement status.

You got my explanation. And you started it.

And now when you don't like it--you play victim. Having been one of those who have been involved--as a private citizen--in natural resource committees and hunting regulations for a long time, and I recognize those who get angry with anybody who doesn't sing with their own choir. And because I'm one of those who have actually contributed a lot of time and effort attempting to address a variety of opinions and beliefs I realize those who are narrow minded generally become frustrated when they find out others also have opinions, and drop out of the process.

We have cussed and discussed wolves to no end. The bottom line is the wolf haters aren't going to stop hating the wolves. More importantly, they are going to be very disappointed when delisting doesn't magically make elk appear at the window of the pickup on opening day of hunting season. Drought, winters, elk overpopulation, and development, are far more important factors than wolves will ever be.

Wolves are here to stay. And here in the interior west, where 30%-60% of the land in each state is owned by the federal government--and the American citizens--wolves will be part of the landscape.

What is going to be interesting is if the states try to manage wolves at the minimum level, and they drop below the minimum, they will probably find the federal courts and USFW intervening again. I don't think that will happen in Idaho or Montana. An acquaintance of mine is a just lowly field biologist in Idaho, but he said wolf numbers will be kept well above the minimum in order to avoid such a scenario. It will also be interesting just how the states go about reducing and maintaining wolf numbers. Sport hunting? During or after deer and elk seasons? Quotas by unit? Drawings for a wolf license? Will they use trapping? (that would be a public relations disaster) Poisoning? (another public relations disaster)

Remember this thread and this post of mine 3-5 years from now. Regardless of delisting, the wolf haters--who represent a tiny fraction of citizens--will still be full of the same rhetoric, anti-hunting conspiracies, and blaming everything on wolves. And there will still be plenty of elk--barring drought, global warming, ice age, or few million new immigrants into Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming.

Casey