Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game 6.5-06 - King of all non DG hunting calibers?

.
If I was really wanting a 6.5-06 performance I would buy a .270 Win. rifle and I doubt you can tell a difference in the field between the two.

I may be a kill-joy and I am not trying to create a conflict, but I do always try to interject truth and facts into the discussion.
Here are some facts that most of the worshipers of the demi-god called "BC" seem to be unaware of.

If we look at a BC of about .480 (which would be many of the bullets you can fire from a, 30-06 some of the good 7MMs or some of the flat base 270s) and we start that bullet out at 2900 FPS with a zero at 300 yards and we track it's trajectory out to 900 yards we will find the impact is 24 feet low if we held the cross-hair dead on that 900 yard target.

If we look at a BC of about .600 (like some of the better 6.5 MM bullets) and we start that bullet out at 2900 FPS (which a 6.5-06 may do and a 264 Win Mag can do with no problem) with a zero at 300 yards and we track it's trajectory out to 900 yards we will find the impact is 20.5 feet low if we held the cross-hair dead on.

So at 900 yards the difference is 3.5 feet. 42 inches. That's it and that's all. If we look at the highest of the 30 cals, 7mms and the 270s for BC, we get numbers in the .49 to .525 range and that makes for a difference at 900 yards of only about 2 feet 3 inches. 27 inches! That's all! (but note, some 270 Winchesters , all 270 Weatherbys and Short mags, and the long barreled 30-06s, as well as the 300 mags and the 7MM Mag can all drive their bullets faster then most of the new 6.5MM shells can, so at 900 yards the difference would be even less then those I show here)

If we are speaking about hunting (or combat sniping) we have to acknowledge that we have no advantage at all, of one rifle or cartridge over any other, if you can't make a 1st round hit from a cold bore. That means if we had a 30-06 with 1/3 MOA capability and a '6.5anything' with a 1/3 MOA capability, both can hold a group at 900 that will get the job done. If we zeroed both rifles spot on at 900 yards and asked any reader here to make a 1st shot cold-bore hit 100% of the time on an 8" target with no misses ever, even with all conditions known, on a groomed field, with the exact distance known and no tricky angles and no tricky wind patterns, what percentage of us can do it?

So if you can't do that 100% of the time you have no ethical reason to try it on an un-wounded game animal.

If you are in the small percent of men or women who can hold that well, and break the sear that precisely, at that range, 100% of the time, you have the skill to do it with any round or rifle accurate enough to put 100% of it's shots into 8" at 900 yards, so BC is not really anything to worry about in the 1st place. At lest not the difference in BCs from the standard 30-06, 7MM or 270, as compared to the new super-slick 6.5 MMs.
We are not talking about comparing a 150 grain flat nose 30-30 to a .600 BC here------ or some pistol bullet.

If you can hold well enough to make a hit you can hold it.

If you can't don't shoot, even if you could miss with a round that shot 2 feet flatter.

It's just a large load of salesmanship as a rule.

Is the 6.5-06 a real good tool for hunting?
Yes!

Just like MANY other rounds are too.
A better question is "are you the "king of all non-dangerous game shooters"?

This is 98% about the shooter and 2% about the tool he is carrying.

What will the 7-08 do that a 6.5 Creedmore, .260 Remington, or Swede won't, using a lighter bullet with less recoil, that is significant inside of 500 yards?

^
^
^
This is true, but again is is not near as large a gain as most seem to think it is. It does lessen the drift.
To use the above example again if we look at the drift of the .480 bullet at 2800 FPS from the muzzle (again think of an old fashioned 30-06 as an example) and we fire it in a full value wind, the drift at 1000 yards is 13.59 MOA. The .600 bullet fired at the same speed the drift at 1000 yards is 10.04
So all the hoopla aside, in the real world it's still only a 21% advantage. About 1/5th less drift.

Now if you dial for wind you would click another 1-2 clicks with the 30-06 over the 6.5-06.

If you hold for wind you would hold 3.55 MOA more which is about 1 mil.

So if you can hold well enough to make a difference it is no harder to hold 1 mil more with a 30-06 then it is to hold 1 mil less with the 6.5MM. but it's still the shooter and his skill that makes the difference, not the drift.

Missed the point entirely. Which is, estimating wind speed and direction is always imprecise and always a source of error because wind is not constant in speed or direction all the way out to the target. So it's not a matter of "simply holding 1 mil more with a .30-06." It's a matter of lessening the effects of your errors in estimating wind speed and direction.

And the better BC reduces the effects of your errors in estimating wind speed and direction by reducing wind drift. So if you want to see the difference in a bullet with .a 480 BC vs. one with .600 BC, run some different scenarios to see what the effects are when your wind speed estimate is off by 5 (or insert your # here) mph.

.
If I was really wanting a 6.5-06 performance I would buy a .270 Win....

...
What will the 7-08 do that a 6.5 Creedmore, .260 Remington, or Swede won't, using a lighter bullet with less recoil,
that is significant inside of 500 yards?

are we ready for the “bullets matter more than headstamp” yet?

^
^
^
This is true, but again is is not near as large a gain as most seem to think it is. It does lessen the drift.
To use the above example again if we look at the drift of the .480 bullet at 2800 FPS from the muzzle (again think of an old fashioned 30-06 as an example) and we fire it in a full value wind, the drift at 1000 yards is 13.59 MOA. The .600 bullet fired at the same speed the drift at 1000 yards is 10.04
So all the hoopla aside, in the real world it's still only a 21% advantage. About 1/5th less drift.

Now if you dial for wind you would click another 1-2 clicks with the 30-06 over the 6.5-06.

If you hold for wind you would hold 3.55 MOA more which is about 1 mil.

So if you can hold well enough to make a difference it is no harder to hold 1 mil more with a 30-06 then it is to hold 1 mil less with the 6.5MM. but it's still the shooter and his skill that makes the difference, not the drift.

So I think the point is made...Is there anything wrong with a small ballistic advantage?
NO! NOT AT ALL!!!!!!!!!

But the gun-rags and the internet articles of today try to convince the shooting public that if they buy "the latest greatest wizz-bang uber modern space gun" they are going to shoot better.

No..........they are not!
Not at all.
Not even a little.

They re going to shoot as well as their skill will allow.

If I were assigned to make a squad of the best marksman I was able to make out of 10 average shooters/hunters and I had a budget of, let's say, $2000 per shooter, I know I would NOT buy them new rifles in a "super slick High BC (or BS) round" I would spend $2000 on each shooter for ammunition components and a few new barrels, and put them through a 6 month course of training.

I am not against any of these shells. I made guns to earn my living. I want to make them for those that ask me (or I did, until I stopped taking more work because of my age and the length of my back-log) because I want their business.
But I am not willing to let them believe a lie and just go along with it, so I can make some money. Doing that makes them distrust me later when they learn the truth, and they will!

When I make such a rifle for someone I tell them the truth of what I am making for them, what they can expect, what it WILL NOT do, and I want them to know they can trust me to be square with them.

The unvarnished truth is that spending $2000 on ammo and maybe a barrel job or 2 is going to make them a FAR better shooter then spending that money on a new gun that shoots a slimmer more slippery bullet, but didn't do a thing to increase their skill.

It's the shooter, not the rifle that matters.
98% the man and 2% the gun

After some feedback from these forums I have locked down my no-DG hunting gun and wanted to share my observations and solicit feedback. It may just be the perfect solution for everything but rabbits and dangerous game. In other words Coyotes - Elk

The gun is a Sako 85 Hunter which I bought pre-owned at Cabelas with the original 30-06 barrel in a box and an unmarked 6.5-06 barrel in a 22.25 in length on the gun - 1:9 twist. I had it verified and stamped by a gunsmith before I shot it. The scope is a Bushnell 6500 Elite 2.5 - 16 x 50 scope Mil Dot Reticle with Sako Rings. The rifle and scope weigh 9.4 lbs. The Bushnell seemed a good value at the time for less than 600 dollars.

After much reloading I have settled on a Hornady 143 ELD X with 51.4 g RL 22, WLR Primer in 25-06 Brass necked up with Redding Dies. I am getting 2806 fps measured with a Magneto at 5500 feet elevation in 70 degrees in an indoor range. The rifle is shooting .75 to 1 in groups for the first two sets of three rounds - The Sako locking mag which I actually like carries 5 rounds a nice advantage over the 6.5 PRC and other magnums and short fat cartridges

At 8500 feet and 35 degrees, 200 yd Zero - where I hunt the federal ballistics calculator shows it will carry the minimum Colorado recommended energy of 1500 and velocity of 2000 out to 600 yds for Elk - the recoil energy is 14.62 lbs and 10fps. Perfect for me.

The rifle has excellent balance, the barrel is heavy enough to shoot 10 - 15 rounds for practice and the scope seems well made, has accurate adjustments, parallax to 10 yds and seems to have better glass than my Nightforce NXS (which does have better turrets and seems more durable) the scope also has a no questions lifetime transferable warranty. The Hornady bullets are inexpensive, easy to load and while I have not verified, are supposed to be deadly at almost all hunting ranges. The brass can be easily made from 25-06, 30-06 and 270 - the most plentiful brass on earth.

The 6-5-06 has significantly more velocity than the much celebrated 6.5 CM, perfect recoil, and is very close to the new 6.5 prc (in the same sized barrels) the hornady ammo lists 2960 in their factory PrC ELD-X load. I imagine my exact load would easily make 2860 in a 24 in barrel. The load appears to be just as accurate as the much hyped new 6.5's and I do not think it is an overbore, but this is subjective.

I wish the scope had MOA hash marks on the reticle to match the turrets instead of mil dots, and I really like illumination which this one does not have although the glass is so bright I have great visibility in the before and after sunrise/sunset realm when the Elk are most active. I am thinking about getting Nikon Laserforce Bino's and Kenton Custom turrets to expedite the shot. For the next barrel I am considering a 24" for more velocity from Mark Chanlynn who has an excellent reputation and is local to me here in Longmont Colorado. I would probably move to a 1:8 twist in the new barrel as it is supposed to be optimal for larger bullets over 130 although perhaps I should not fix something that aint broken.

I would appreciate opinions in this. I was never able to get the 140 Nosler AB's to group. I am considering either a Swift 120 A frame or Nosler 130 AB for smaller game although I like one powder, one bullet for everything and might just let it be.

I would love to hear feedback on this project from others.

After some feedback from these forums I have locked down my no-DG hunting gun and wanted to share my observations and solicit feedback. It may just be the perfect solution for everything but rabbits and dangerous game. In other words Coyotes - Elk

The gun is a Sako 85 Hunter which I bought pre-owned at Cabelas with the original 30-06 barrel in a box and an unmarked 6.5-06 barrel in a 22.25 in length on the gun - 1:9 twist. I had it verified and stamped by a gunsmith before I shot it. The scope is a Bushnell 6500 Elite 2.5 - 16 x 50 scope Mil Dot Reticle with Sako Rings. The rifle and scope weigh 9.4 lbs. The Bushnell seemed a good value at the time for less than 600 dollars.

After much reloading I have settled on a Hornady 143 ELD X with 51.4 g RL 22, WLR Primer in 25-06 Brass necked up with Redding Dies. I am getting 2806 fps measured with a Magneto at 5500 feet elevation in 70 degrees in an indoor range. The rifle is shooting .75 to 1 in groups for the first two sets of three rounds - The Sako locking mag which I actually like carries 5 rounds a nice advantage over the 6.5 PRC and other magnums and short fat cartridges

At 8500 feet and 35 degrees, 200 yd Zero - where I hunt the federal ballistics calculator shows it will carry the minimum Colorado recommended energy of 1500 and velocity of 2000 out to 600 yds for Elk - the recoil energy is 14.62 lbs and 10fps. Perfect for me.

The rifle has excellent balance, the barrel is heavy enough to shoot 10 - 15 rounds for practice and the scope seems well made, has accurate adjustments, parallax to 10 yds and seems to have better glass than my Nightforce NXS (which does have better turrets and seems more durable) the scope also has a no questions lifetime transferable warranty. The Hornady bullets are inexpensive, easy to load and while I have not verified, are supposed to be deadly at almost all hunting ranges. The brass can be easily made from 25-06, 30-06 and 270 - the most plentiful brass on earth.

The 6-5-06 has significantly more velocity than the much celebrated 6.5 CM, perfect recoil, and is very close to the new 6.5 prc (in the same sized barrels) the hornady ammo lists 2960 in their factory PrC ELD-X load. I imagine my exact load would easily make 2860 in a 24 in barrel. The load appears to be just as accurate as the much hyped new 6.5's and I do not think it is an overbore, but this is subjective.

I wish the scope had MOA hash marks on the reticle to match the turrets instead of mil dots, and I really like illumination which this one does not have although the glass is so bright I have great visibility in the before and after sunrise/sunset realm when the Elk are most active. I am thinking about getting Nikon Laserforce Bino's and Kenton Custom turrets to expedite the shot. For the next barrel I am considering a 24" for more velocity from Mark Chanlynn who has an excellent reputation and is local to me here in Longmont Colorado. I would probably move to a 1:8 twist in the new barrel as it is supposed to be optimal for larger bullets over 130 although perhaps I should not fix something that aint broken.

I would appreciate opinions in this. I was never able to get the 140 Nosler AB's to group. I am considering either a Swift 120 A frame or Nosler 130 AB for smaller game although I like one powder, one bullet for everything and might just let it be.

I would love to hear feedback on this project from others.

good pic h m 22

maybe it's about not having to use a 270 with comparable bullets.....