Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Backpack Hunting Recommendations on a zero degree bag?

The guides say that’s what me and Mrs. Walter need for Kilimanjaro, so I’m in the buy once cry once mode.

What’s you favorite?

I’m 5’10 and 200 lbs.

David, you'll probably get more opinions than you need. But in the "buy once and cry once" department I've never slept in anything better than a Western Mountaineering bag. Having owned a couple I find them to fit "snugly" which of course aids in temp rating. Little things that scream attention to detail make me like their bags. No quill feathers, good baffling to keep the insulation where it belongs, zipper air baffle that is very difficult to get stuck in the zipper, excellent ergonomics regarding both the neck and head/face closure systems. WM makes very fine bags.

I don't know anything about climbing Kilimanjaro but assuming it's expected to be a dry climb then no need to go with the Gore outer shell on the WM bag. Very good warmth to weight and bulk ratio.

A dear lady friend of ours climbed K a few years ago. And while she's uncommonly strong and healthy for her age I know if she could do it most anybody can. She said the key to her groups' success was slow and steady acclimation and almost forced hydration. Good luck!

WM is hard to beat. A good down bag can be a lifetime investment.
A more economical option would be marmot.

Lots of good bags. WM are hard to beat but my favorite would be a Valandre’ Shocking Blue.

As folks have said lots of good choices. I think most folks can get a lifetime out of a well cared for down bag ( especially if you end up with couple for different applications). You can read about fills and fabrics, but for me sizing is the wild card. Getting something large enough for me and what else is going into the bag is pretty critical.

My first down bag, I got too interested in getting a bag with maximum loft and minimum weight and it ended up as a bag that was not comfortable for 14hr winter nights. If you can find a WM dealer with some stock who will let you lie down in a bag, I think its worth it before you drop the coin.

I ordered a 0 degree quilt from UGQ. It hasn't arrived yet so I can't comment on how well it works. However, if you like the idea of a lightweight, compact quilt and leaving the weight and bulk at home, they're highly recommended.

Anyone tried the NEMO SONIC? Backpacker rated it an editor's choice.

Agree with NoKnees. Western Moutaineering, microfiber shell. Try a few on.

David,

I have had a Marmot 15 down bag for at least 10 years. Excellent bag. 2 Years ago bought a Marmot 0 degree bag. Havent used in zero temps but was very comfortable a 9 degrees.

The 15 degree bag has worn well.

IMOP Marmot is a good choice.


Lefty

I have a MontBell Ultra Stretch that's really nice.

Superb products, high performing.

Rapid loft achieved after unpacking.

I spray the outside of sleeping bags with DWR for added "mist/snow proofing" and keeps them cleaner.

Add a Cocoon Mummy Liner (or equivalent) for 5-8 degrees added warmth factor as well as keeping inside of bag clean.

Western Mountaineering Kodiak.

But I'll admit the price increases the last several years have been huge, double what I paid it seems.

David,

I have a new, never used WM bag for sale if you’re interested.

Thx,

Bob

Feathered Friends is a great option. I picked one up this year and used it at 0 degrees, was comfortable until I had to get out of the bag:) They are based in Seattle and you can lay in the bag to check out fit.

Akbob5,

Please PM me details

My question would be, what's your plan for future use?

There's no point going to the expense of a WM or FF bag if it will only be used once or twice. There are plenty of quality 0* synthetic bags in the $200 range that will work.

Also, 5'10" / 200lbs... I'd recommend at least a 62" shoulder girth. And 64" will likely be better.

A 0* bag is not a very versatile bag, even with down fill. The backpacking standard is a 15-25* bag for general use, and for very good reason.

One way to get around this limited use would be to get a quality 15* or 20* bag and get a synthetic or down insulated "overbag" to extend its temp range.

I'd also bring a VBL (vapor barrier liner). That will add around 10* comfort to your bag.

A "sleeping system" is a much more sound and versatile way to go than a single use bag.

The most common mistake is to buy "too much bag"... especially on Kilimanjaro, where you'll be going through very distinct and different temp environments (quite warm at base, very cold up high), I'd prefer the versatility of a "system."

Brad,

That makes sense.

We’re going to look at what we have in the 15-20* range, and already use, and see how to get a few more degrees out of those.

Luckily (?) it’s winter and I can test the system pretty easily where I live.

That's a sound plan David.

Here's a good overbag:

https://www.backcountry.com/the-nor...ehYfN3wIVyx-tBh0yFA55EAYYASABEgKlZ_D_BwE

A couple from a very good Canadian Co. I've dealt with over the years (prices in CDN $):

https://www.mec.ca/en/products/camping-and-hiking/sleeping-bags-and-pads/overbags/c/1407

Sounds like a wonderful trip!

Brad
What VBL do you like??

I have an REI Magma bag, 10* IIRC. This year I was trying some different things and had a Kifaru Woobie along originally for my wife to use while glassing or around camp. Along the lines of a system, we ended up with some unusually cold weather and draped the woobie over the bags and was pleasantly surprised at the difference that made. The woobie was also quite nice to have for glassing!

Edit: for reference, my wife has a Marmot Helium 15* bag and was reasonably comfortable with temps around zero. Also dressed like an Eskimo!

805, mine is an ancient Chouinard / Zero Point model. But if I were getting a new one I'd probably go with Western Mountaineering. Seems like it's about the lightest out there, and everything they do is well thought out...

David,

I picked up a Nemo Riff earlier last year. I believe that's the 15 degree version. Used it up elk hunting in early September so it didn't get real cold but did get to the mid 20's a couple of nights. This is the first down bag I've ever tried and it was different. Definitely see why you need a good pad to go along with it. I did get kind of warm a few times and just used it like a blanket. But the shape of the bag is very roomy in the right spots. I didn't like the traditional mummy bags I tried on as they were a bit too restrictive for my liking. I'm 5'-9" and run a bit over 165 and this is a very comfortable bag.

Kurt

FWIW, I've got a group of friends that Climb Hood and the likes in the Cascades at not very friendly times of the year and they all like Sierra Designs bags. My son has one that's been very solid performer. All synthetic's so they tend to be a lil on the heavy side. We both love our Sea to Summit Cocoon silk liners which can add about 9* of warmth. Take lots of Pics I hope your trip goes well!!!

I have a North Face Inferno -20F that I use for winter bivi hunts. I have been happy with it. Also, it wasn’t as expensive as some competing brands.

If I were in the buy once cry once mode for a zero degree bag it would come down to two brands

Western Mountaineering - Antelope
This is actually a five degree bag but for approx $35 extra you can get them to do an overfill which will add some additional warmth.

Marmot - Lithium
I have spent some miserable nights in Marmot bags just because I was too warm.
I have owned two different Marmot bags. I have a 15 degree Marmot Pinnacle (the model has been discontinued). I have had it in the mid 20s and had to keep it almost completely unzipped. I remember once I was backpacked in and came back to camp cold and tired. I ate a quick dinner and crawled in the bag. I was really cold so I zipped it all the way up and went promptly to sleep (temp was in the low 30s). I woke up a couple of hours later bathed in sweat and was overheated so bad that I was nauseated. I crawled out of the bag and went and stood outside in my underwear in 33 degree weather just to cool down.

I also owned a zero degree Marmot bag that l foolishly sold. I used that bag in November at 8400 ft elevation with my tent pitched on top of the snow. I still had to sleep with it completely unzipped and draped over me like a blanket.

If you want to stay warm invest in a good pad. In cold temps I use two (full length foam pad with a 3/4 length Thermarest).
Also, you will stay warmer if you eat carbs right before bedtime. A Hershey bar is a guilty pleasure and will help to keep you warm.

I promise you that you climb into a Western Mountaineering Kodiak and you will fall in love.

I’m leaning heavily toward the WM Versalite 10* bag, because I like a roomy shoulder area and a roomy foot box.

Does Marmot make anything like that?

David, I have a Versalite. It’s a good bag. I have a WM Superlite for summer.

The closest bag Marmot makes to the Versalite is the Helium.

If you get a Western Mountaineering bag get it from Hermits Hut. They offer free overfill, something I’d recommend.

https://hermitshut.com/products/western-mountaineering-versalite-sleeping-bag

Thanks, Brad.

I found this: https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics/camping-and-hiking/best-sleeping-bag-down-cold-weather

Lots of WM bags on that list.

David at our house, since1992, we’ve had total of 7 Western Mountaineering bags... we’re presently down to 3

For me, there’s no other I’d own, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t other good bags out there, including Marmot.

I have had great luck with Feathered Friends, but WM and Valandre seem to be maybe just a bit loftier. All 3 make terrific bags. Marmot offers 95%+ of the performance and you can actually find them on sale once in a while...

I would go WM if I could swing it or Marmot if not.
Can’t think of much worse than a vapor barrier between me and the bag. Yuk.

When it's below zero it's critical in a down bag... but you've got to have synthetics on over the skin.

I have used VBLs, and hate sleeping in the things. For me for tips of 4 or less nights Id rather have a bag that enough loft to function even after several nights use and forgo the VBL. Much more than 4 nights or so and you will need a VBL unless you can air or dry the bag during the day.

i stopped buying cheap bags, for me its western mountaineering all the way.

You're not talking about below zero temps obviously as "air drying" a bag at -5F is not going to get you anything, unless you have strong sunlight, then a bit of solar action will help break down ice crystals.

Again, when most people say they don't like a VBL, they're usually talking about using it in temps above 0*F, but below 32*F... that's the temp range where I DON'T use a VBL.

I have enough nights well below 0 to know I would rather not use the VBL unless I needed it to maintain a dry bag. Back in my 20's and early 30's I hung out with a bunch of folks who did quite a bit of winter stuff in the Adirondacks, NH and CO with a trip Denali and one to South America. ( I did the did the Denali trip, but not the SA trip) In the Adirondacks or NH nights below -10 were the the norm. Maybe it was just our group but none of them used a VBL except when we thought we needed it for moisture management. Its possible that our group was unusual in our equipment choices, or times have changed.

My original winter bag back in the day was a marmot cwm (with the Gore dry something shell), I followed it with a WM Puma which I still have and now I also have a Marmot Col which came from a friends estate. The CWM and Puma will keep me warm even after several nights out without a VBL.

I don't do as much of that stuff as I used to, my old friends have moved onto other activities and I am not in the shape I was at 30. Its possible the equipment tech has changed. back in the day we all bought super warm bags ( or so we thought) even if they were heavy, in fact a lot of our winter gear was pretty heavy. Perhaps a lighter bag with a VBL is more the norm now. Its also true that the weather has moderated. 30 years ago overnight lows in the NE mountains of -20 to -30 were not uncommon. in my last few winter trips its been above zero, heck least year I did a couple of the Adirondack peaks and I took a quilt not a bag.

Yeah, I came of age doing winter trips in the Presidentials and ADK in the 1970’s, before I moved West. I got a NF Ibex bag in 1976, which was the state of the art in that era for a -15* bag. My first week long trip saw temps -15/-20* at night, no higher than zero during the day. I lost insulation rapidly and by day five had essentially a +15 bag. By 1978 I switched to a synthetic bag rated to -20* and never had an issue. Later in the early 80’s I switched back to a down USA made Marmot w/ Goretex shell, and that’s when I went to a VBL. But that early trip of losing loft seared in my consciousness the need for a VBL, and I’d never contemplate an extended winter trip without one. But I’ve never been a “heavy sweater”, and will only use the VBL with capilene-type synthetIcs on... I don’t find VBL’s obnoxious, but everyone’s experience is uniquely their own.

I agree. Unless wood heat is somehow part of the trip plan, I always bring my ID VBL on any trips longer than a couple nights. From Oct on up here.

I'm wondering about your destination and a possible differences in culture/translation. The guides on Killamanjaro suggest a 0° rated bag. Are you sure that 0° is Fahrenheit? all the discussion I've seen on this thread assumes Fahrenheit degrees. Nobody in the world except the USA uses °F anymore. Is it possible the they meant 0° Celsius? That would change the bag required considerably. You might want to confirm the units of measurement before you buy.

Zero Celsius is 32F.

Killi, at elevation in a 32F bag?

Good luck.

Also keep in mind that many bag makers now use the European standard for temp rating. A zero degree bag doesn't mean you'll be warm and cozy at 0. It means that you can survive at 0. The bag will be warm and cozy at 10 to 15 at the lowest, maybe 20 if you're a cold sleeper.

I like bags with a large foot box. The more mummy the warmer, I get that, but I’d like some room.

How’s that change recommendations?

That is why I bought a Marmot Lithium...bigger foot box.

There are several extremely good choices, my two favourite brands being Valandre and Western Mountaineering.

My choice these days is a Valandre Bloody Mary which packs light and small, and is good for 90pct of my hunts.

In late season, or when hunting high altitude, I scale up by sleeping on my KUIU Super Down Jacket and Pants, their Ultras or Pros depending 0on how late in the season and how high I am.

If it gets really cold I wear Valandre's Olan down booties, and KUIUs Down Glassing Mitts.

tag

Anyone running this?

https://www.wiggys.com/sleeping-bags/hunter-ultima-thule-rectangular-sleeping-bag/

I wouldn't give Jerry Wigutow a dime, and I sure wouldn't get an 8lb sleeping bag.

what temps are you hunting in? I personally have ran a 20 degree bag for years. I have used it down to close to zero, I simply just wear more clothes depending on the temps I expect that night. I hate being hot in a sleeping bag, The whole too hot, stick a leg out, too cold thing drives me nuts. in cold weather I also wear a large beenie that pulls down to my nose that keeps my head and neck warm, kuiu marion 210 bottoms, 210 top, hoodie, even 210 gloves to keep my hands warm if I poke them out at night. IMO this is way way better than trying to use a zero degree bag. My dad always bought me zero degree sleeping bags as a kid and I hated them. I run a cabelas boundary waters large rectanglar down bag, plenty of room, they no longer sell them, but LL bean makes one pretty close to it currently. its light enough to backpack and I have taken it lots of times that way. its also NOT a mummy bag either. kinda a unique combo of light weight and good size. had it for nearly 15 years, its nice knowing my sleeping bag and exactly what I need for a given night.

Given the choice of having to unzip a bag that's too warm to ventilate vs. attempting to sleep in a 20 degree bag in honest-to-goodness zero degree temps, it's not even close.

umm ok, I guess you know more than I do. big game hunts around here are done by mid November, should be the same to the east of me in colorado as well. I hunt longer as I hunt high deserts in nevada into december. upper single digits was the coldest temps I stayed in this year. I have used my gear down to about zero although I am unsure of the exact temp. I have to ask what are you doing camping in Antarctica? if its below zero I am staying in the truck, the tent, whatever that is my threshold. I spend 25+ days a year in the sleeping bag I mentioned. YES give me a 20 degree bag and I will simply wear the appropriate clothes to bed to make up the difference. kuiu merino wool goes with a down sleeping bag like I have like burgers and fries. I often sleep better than I do at home. Also when the days are short its common to just throw up a tent cook dinner and go to bed before 8:00, its common to be asleep for 10 hours before getting up the next morning fully refreshed.

you have your system I have mine, I know what works for me emphatically over 15 years and lots of nights in nearly all temps, you can wear more clothes and adjust to make your sleeping bag warmer, but you can't make a sleeping bag cooler. nothing wakes me up like being hot cold, hot cold,

"Given the choice of having to unzip a bag that's too warm to ventilate vs. attempting to sleep in a 20 degree bag in honest-to-goodness zero degree temps, it's not even close."

+1

cumminscowboy...

Of the "School of Better Safe Than Sorry"...mountains will kill you if you take your attention off of them for even a moment. Fields, woods, hilly country...not so much.

Only YOU can determine YOUR margin of safety that you are comfortable with.

Don't NEED more than a cylinder or magazine of cartridges in bear country, but always carry a couple extra in my pocket, too.

This is a good part of why I switched to a quilt. It can be tucked in tight or left loose for more ventilation. A zipper is a pain when you have to get up in the night, too. With a quilt, just toss it off and get up. You sleep without a zipper at home, why not in the hills? A quilt works like the blankets on your bed.

good advice, I do as you are suggesting when its warmer at night, like say not getting below 50 degrees. I usually lay a blanket on my sleeping pad and upzip the entire bag and use it as a blanket. sheriff joe, I have spent over 250 nights in this sleeping bag, I don't know about you but I think that is quite a bit!!! I am comfortable with my margins and preparedness level.

All outstanding insights. Especially when the OP asked for recommendations on a zero degree bag.

Yup...that's why I own and recommend the Marmot Lithium.

Stuck on stupid huh? You don’t have to agree, my dad always thought i needed 0 degree. 250 nights say otherwise

Yikes...

I am 6'4" size 14 shoe. I love the Marmot Never Summer of course I get the long which you won't need. But great room inside.

Sorry, I forgot that what YOU need is the topic of the thread.

Why don't you give the OP credit for knowing what he needs?

To the O.P. .... another point to consider in your sleeping system, if you are to sleep in cold weather, is the sleeping mattress.

Loft and air trapped is what isolates your body warmth form the exterior. Lying down, your body weight compresses all the loft and you will lose all your body temperature at those compression points.

The typical cell foam or finger thin ultra light air mattress will void the comfort temperature of your sleeping bag. I would suggst looking at something like the EXPED Down Mat.

I use an air mattress with an R4 rating. That's not enough when it's real cold but a closed cell pad either under or on top of it takes care of anything I've slept in.

Why yikes. Under what circumstances have you hunted below zero? I just described in detail exactly how I do it. Big game hunts are done in the west by the middle of November in areas that would see zero or below. I hunt beyond that into the middle of December. Do you even use your gear or are you a couch camper?

LOL, I'm pretty sure he guides from a couch.......

A zero deg quilt sidesteps all of these “problems” that are being argued about

Which quilt?

Yes....

I've been using an EE for two years now. Love it. Also use it as a bag liner wall tent camping when it's really cold.

Laughing...

Was going to make a comment about you needing to do a sleep system review at the swing set before you can be taken seriously but I won't...

Mine is a UGQ XL Bandit. I haven't had it long and the coldest I've used it in was 25F. It's rated 10F and I was more than warm enough at 25. They make them down to 0 and you can get extra fill. It weighs under 3lb. Going wider costs very little more and sure helps with keeping it tucked in. https://ugqoutdoor.com

EE quilts are also very popular but they cost a little more and don't have as many options for size and fill.

I own a Wiggys sleeping bag. It’s a -40 I’ve owned for many years. It’s very warm and has lots of room. That being said I would never use it for backpacking. It ways a lot. 8.5 pound or more I believe.

Several years ago, I invited our minister on a llama pack trip. He showed up with a below 0 bag that rolled up to about 20" thick by 40" long and weighed enough to cripple a Clydesdale. I decided it would be a good idea to loan him an extra 4lb down bag I had.

Good decision.

Modern down bags can get you under 3lb for "0" ratings.

GFY, once you have spent 250+ nights in your "sleep system" get back to me. my systems works for 60 degree nights at lake powell, august backpack archery hunts at 12000 feet, october hunts for big game, 50 mile backpack trips to the highest point in utah with the boyscouts. to zero degrees in mid december in nevada. I sleep better than at home in most cases. So keep on making fun of what you know nothing about. you could actually learn something. I asked under what circumstances you are hunting big game at 0 degrees or there abouts. Jordan smith is a canuck so he is an exception, he probably might see below 0, I don't know. if you plan on never adjusting your clothing when you sleep you are going to need a different sleeping bag for every situation I just named.

[/quote]

Why yikes. Under what circumstances have you hunted below zero? I just described in detail exactly how I do it. Big game hunts are done in the west by the middle of November in areas that would see zero or below. I hunt beyond that into the middle of December. Do you even use your gear or are you a couch camper?
[/quote]

Montana's general rifle season runs until the Sunday after Thanksgiving and the shoulder seasons go into February for elk.
I've shot elk at -20 and been elk hunting at quite a bit colder temps. Below zero and deep snow is what I prefer to hunt elk in.
And, yes, I've taken a 25 degree rated bag and slept comfortable at -10, but I wouldn't recommend it as a general practice.

So sensitive. Still laughing. I bet you are from Utah. Lots of sensitive folks live there for some reason. You know nothing about me bud. Keep yapping...

Are you a scout master?

I'm in smokepole's and EdT's camp all day long.....

I'd rather get hot than have my balls chattering. Been there done that lots of times. Never again. If you want to carry all sorts of crap to sleep in on a giant mountain and carry it all in and bring a bag rated 20 degrees warmer than what you might experience on a backpack hunt because you don't like to get too hot and don't like to stick your leg out while sleeping then go for it. Not good advice for 95 percent of the folks reading I'd say, nor for me. I at times sleep with base layers, etc when needed but to plan to do that on purpose is not planning properly IMO. If it works for you great.

s
Add me to this list.

Funny, I bought a WM Lynx over Stuffed last year because I froze my butt off in 2017 with my 5 degree bag.

Way better to carry 8 oz more bag then bust a molar from my teeth chattering.

I spent enough time freezing when
I forced my 20 degree bag because I had no other choice.

BtW my recommendation would be a WM Antelope Microro Fiber.

Go Western Mountaineering and go without worries.

Marmot and Mont-Bell would be excellent, as well.

Feathered Friends makes great bags for skinny people. If you or your wife are anything more than “slender,” I’d avoid Fearhered Friends.

You'd be welcome there any time. This whole conversation reminds me of what they say about multiple layers of clothes. If you're too warm, you can always take some off. But if you're wearing everything you've got and you're cold, you're pretty much screwed.

Man, you sure pegged GW...I think he even mounted his TV remote to his 7/08. Fug’n Laffin at you 😎

EdT nailed it.

I spent a week in a tent on Mount Fairweather. If you know Mount Fairweather, you know there is nothing fair about the weather there. We had a guy basically use Cumminscowboys approach. I will say this he made it out, but I promise you he learned a lesson he would never repeat again. Personally I can't sleep in clothes, I keep them in my bag with me to keep them warm. When I get dressed in the morning I am warm and ready to go.

thank you very much, you just made my point without even knowing it. if you are worried about your balls chattering indicates you are unfamilar with your "sleep system" Do you even need one or are you too busy sleeping warm inside your camper and riding your side by side around on the mountain. I don't worry about shivering because I know my gear and know exactly what I need and when. I don't carry all sorts of crap with me. quite the opposite, what I suggested is using what I am already using IE clothing and making it a flexible solution for pairing with my sleep system. for crying out loud this is common sense. Why tailor your sleeping bag so its comfortable to sleep naked in? Why not adapt yourself to the sleeping bag? IE wear more clothes that you already have. You have no idea what I am even trying to say do you? not worth arguing with. How many nights have you spent in your exact "sleep system" when you get over 250 get back to me.

Everyone on this thread disagrees with you. Have you ever taken note that basically anyone who knows WTF they are talking about, many whom I've hunted with and conversed with, then there are those on this site at the top of what they do, pretty much do the exact opposite of your "common sense" approaches whether it be gear, optics, rifles, etc? Just some food for thought. This thread is a great example.

Recommendations on a zero degree bag:

"Get a 20-degree bag." LOL.

"

I’ve decided to rent their bags at the site and use them. However, I’m hedging my bet by bringing a Big Agnes McGinnis 650 down tech bag for momma to use as an insert in case she gets cold.

Good luck and post a few details and some photos when you get back.

GW
I’m looking for a new bag that will work either in a tent, in my truck, or on the ground in temps down to 15*-20* degrees.

I would like a bag other than a mummy shape, preferring more room at my feet and shoulders for moving and turning inside the bag during the night, an outer bag cover will also be purchased for those hunts that put me on the ground.

Post here or PM me with you thoughts. I ready to buy one now...Thanks! Beav 😎

Sounds like you need a quilt Beav.....

Mines an EE 0 degree but there are others....

Or you could go the cumminscowboy route and buy a 50 degree bag, learn your "system" and hope you're fine if the weather gets to 10 degrees when the weatherman at the nearest closest place 6k feet below you and 20 miles away calls for 40 degrees....

I’m buying a quilt, too. Just not taking it in the trip.

I usually go with advice from those who live life to hunt when seeking information on gear. Not looking for a sleep number system by Ronco.
Simplicity is a proven formula when chasing animals around that can take you away from base camp in a hot second, putting you and a bag on the ground to catch your animal at first light. Thanks...EE 0 degree quilt will be my huckleberry! 😎

Greg, when did you buy a side by side? Finally! I may actually hunt with you again. All that hiking was ruining my southern redneck reputation.

EE makes good quilts but before you buy one, take a good look at UGQ quilts. They run a bit cheaper and they have more options for size and fill. I'm a side sleeper so I got one 65" wide that really tucks in without leaks.

GW, Just ordered up an EE Acomplice Quilt (10* F) to (-12* C) Very nice! Thanks for the lift up 😎

Greg you got a camper too???? What's this wall tent you were talking about!!! , Grin

Thanks RC....I looked. The EE Acomplice was exactly what I wanted. I have a lot of military bags that have worked in super cold temps, but the lack of free movement inside the bag caused some rough nights. Could have been the horns I kept thinking about getting on in the morning that contributes to lack of sleep. Grin 😎