Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire I want to hear the cops side of this one

The witnesses take an oath to tell the truth - the two lawyers certainly don't.

And, neither does the Judge.

Don

But the witnesses are often limited by the players as to what they can testify! Many times limited to yes and no answers
which causes the opposite of what the witness intended to testify!

And yes, Don, the judge them instructs the jury as to what they may or may not do? I was under the impression that juries were supposed to vote their conscience on the matter. And even to
find in conflict with the law. Justice O'Connor said jury nullification was a proper thing in our system. It tends to counter unjust laws and judges who think it is proper to make laws from the bench.

Sorry, but the system is a travesty, or at best a dark comedy of errors! Truth be known, the only beneficiaries of the system are the lawyers. A fact many of them have trouble accepting and dealing with!

If the rules of evidence didn't come from representitives of the people, then they didn't come with the consent of the governed.
I'm curious as to where they came from, and just who thought they had the right to install them without consent of the people?

But then, government, and those who make it up, seem to think they don't need consent, and that the constitution is just a meaningless piece of parchment in a museuum.

Come to think of it, they might just be right? Pass the popcorn, the game is on!

I'd have to ask if there is an ongoing problem with shootings in the park. I always assumed that EVERYBODY was armed and approached them with caution. I also considered that one might be legitimately armed so I would ask-after having told them to please keep their hands in the open, not necessarily raised. The "NEW AGE" cops have been indoctrinated much differently and the newbies around here mostly act like terrified dogs. Just like real dogs, it is the SCARED dogs that bite most often and worst. Fear. It is a stench. A disgusting stench.

Policing became insanely dangerous back in the 80s at the height of the crack-cocaine wave. NYC cops were being shot and killed while interupting car thefts. The really weird part of that is that car thieves almost never received jail time for their crime--just time served + probation. So cops were being killed by drug addicts because the addicts refused to have their "high" interupted by a a short stay in detention while waiting to be arraigned.

The modern policing methods that were developed to counter extreme the threats have not been ratcheted down now that crime has fallen dramatically. Add the fact that a cop's use of common sense means he is just begging to be accused of racial bias or profiling and we have the "perfect storm" of stupidity. Department policy usually errs on the side of officer safety and never offers the street cop any incentive to use his discretion in the application of force.

Kind of hard to voice much of an opinion just based on this information. BTW....retired LEO here.
To determine whether the force used was excessive one must know what the old man's demeanor was like and whether he was failing to obey verbal commands. If he was hostile and defiant and refused to take his hands out of his pockets he is going to the ground, old man or not. Completely justified.
On the other hand if he appears confused and is failing to obey verbal commands a lesser level of force is appropriate, maybe none at all. Its a judgment call that has to be made in every situation and it requires common sense and experience on the part of the officer.
All agencies have policies governing how much force is appropriate in a given situation but policy has to be accompanied by good judgment or it doesnt mean much. Its impossible to write a policy that will perfectly fit every situation an officer may encounter.
My philosophy was always to try to hire the applicants that showed the best common sense. I can teach them how to do the job but if they dont have common sense I cant make a good officer out of them.

wazzagrunt,

I used to be a rabid police hater. But thanks to Mac84, Terry Lee, RogerK and a few others, I have come to see the points like you make.

However, the answer lies within society and the legal system.
Prosecutors and judges mostly are to blame. Prosecutors who pander to their liberal mindsets and the PC political system. Judges, liberal judges, who have a real disdain for punishing crimes most of us abhor, but their liberal biases cannot seem to punish harshly, and desire to override law by making law from the bench.

Case in point. A Border agent and a Sheriff sent to prison for what amounts to a misdemeanor paperwork error, while hard core
drug dealers get a free ride and assitance from the government due to assinine decisions and actions by a prosecutor.

This basitd should be disbarred, his citizenship revoked and his worthless azz deported to Mexico! Even if we had to fly over their airspace and drop him into the country from the air!

These circumstances are eventually going to result in martial law and the suspension of what little is left of the constitution.

My answer to the terrified cops would be to get a real job, and one you can handle! Nobody forced them into this so-called profession!

How can they think they protect and serve, when the average citizen is terrified every time they see some jack booted kid
with a shaved head, who is probably hyped out on illegal steroids himnself?

I have learned compassion on the cop caught in this mess, but have little compassion when the dumbazz stays there after seeing
what it involves! You simply cannot work in a chithouse without smelling like the workplace to everyone else!

If it was someone like 280Don--what would you do??


Dogs, firehoses, assault rifles, swat team, bullet-proof vans and shields, riot gear and candy!!!!

Well, at least it is easier to get lawyers, you just throw a stack of 100 bills in front of them and wait. Les

You'd take that bait too buddy!

Well, yeah, I probably would, but I would look like a turtle as I went to get it. Les

Retired LEO? I can tell from your post, that you must have been one of the good ones. Thank you for your service.

On the other hand, you are right. It is a matter of police officer judgement. That is exactly what is being questioned, their judgement! Cops without good judgement should simply be fired! But then I understand that given what the job requires,
the low pay doesn't exactly attract the right people it seems.

Given the degeneracy of the system in general, nowadays I simply question the intellect of those who apply for the job. Their
character is also suspect and their integrity is destroyed shortly thereafter by the blue wall.

No, I really cannot see anyone with any morals or integrity desirng one of these jobs. Must be reasons other than good ones,
although self-deception runs rampant!

Nah, they wouldn't be required, buddy! I'd simply smile a lot, say no sir and yes sir while pretending not to be the sharpest tool in the box. I'd even find a way to remain still on my stomach if taserd twice, or being beaten by several cops while others told me to "not move"? I'd survive quite nicely.

Then, after it was all over I'd send thank you notes to the LEOs who acted appropriately, and do my best to get the bad ones fired. Now if that didn't work, I've got a fair amount of funding at my disposal, I know people for hire that could plant evidence and make false charges, just like the worst of the cops.

If all else fails, I'm reminded of a George Clooney line in one of his latest flicks, "You will come home one day and find your wife raped and dead, then you will find your son has died from an apparent overdose. And the bottom line is after a short spell, no one will care".

As I've said before, freedom nowadays is bought and paid for,
rather than God-given. I live on the new street, in the big house at the end. Every cop in town knows me and what I believe. I also own the biggest baddest whore around. (my lawyer) He's ruthless because he works on fear. Fear that my retainer checks will stop coming in! He's kinda like a pit bull.
Even the local judges don't mess with him much!

And I don't have to like or even respect him. He takes my money and is gone when I wake up!

Come to think of it, I don't anticipate any problems for me, or mine!

>"No, I really cannot see anyone with any morals or integrity desirng one of these jobs."<


Don I have been out of the business for a few years but I am still well connected to what is going on inside it. There is some truth to what you said. Good applicants are getting harder and harder to find. I attribute this to the fact that the upcoming generation just wasnt raised with the integrity and morals of past generations. Sad but true.
The larger departments with big budgets and the manpower to conduct thorough background investigations on applicants do a pretty good job at weeding out the bad apples because they spell liability in big bold letters.
The small agencies without the resources are where the bad ones end up for the most part, but a bad one can slip through the cracks even at the most professional accredited agency. I know first hand. I was commander of Internal Affairs at a large metro Atlanta agency before I retired to heaven.

Note to lodgepole.....be sure whose laptop you are sitting in front of before you type a message.....LOL

Yeah, Now don't take me wrong, lodgepole. As I listened to other older LEOs about my attitude, I've met and had good conversations with several good guys in blue.

I can fully apreciate your service as an IA officer. What I cannot imagine is the abuse you must have suffered over the years? Thank you again for your service. I hope you enjoy your retirement in heaven!

I cannot imagine the role of a good cop in New Orleans in the eighties. If I remember correctly, IA and the feds arrested about 80% of the force for drug dealing, and/or related crimes.

Nice thing about the smaller forces, bad apples are more easily dealt with because it takes less pressure on the powers that be to effect change.

I'd like to see higher levels of qualifications and psych testing
coupled with much higher pay. I want the best of the best available. Guys who can refuse an illegal or improper instruction from wrong-headed superiors. I'd like to see strong
IA squads that serve two purposes. 1. To weed out bad cops.
2. To help protect falsely accused good ones through superior fact finding.

It appears lodgepole got busted by a non-cop! grin

Don you have a perfect understanding of what IA's job is. My unit exposed far more false allegations against officers than we did sustain true ones. During my tenure it was well known that if an officer was not guilty he had no need to worry, but if he was guilty he needed to be very worried. Its good to hear that your mind is open about cops. Too many are closed.

As a former rent-a-cop (part-time police officer) in the mid-seventy's we were trained to "serve and protect" which meant that we might be killed in the line of duty. We also had to have common sense even for this mid-twenty something kid at the time. We also wore a dress type uniform with shirt and tie at all times with a hat. Our whole demeanor was different from today's.

Here's today's new police officer especially in the big city; no common sense, "Dirty Harry" mentality, "officer safety first" "serve and protect" second, shaved head, tattoos, no hat or tie, combat fatigues, etc. and you get a police officer who is scared chit less and thinks he is tough. This leads to one cocky and scared police officer and trouble.

One more thing: I had a situation just recently where I turned in some guys acting quite suspiciously with firearms. SWAT was called out and the whole nine yards. No shots fired and suspects were taken into custody with no side effects. I think the reason this went so well is because Montana is a gun toting society. I described the gun exactly as it was, a Remington 12 gauge, model 870 pump shotgun. The police knew exactly what they were up against. I also told the police where the suspects where and gave an exact description of the vehicle they were driving. 911 kept me on the phone until I had made contact with a SWAT officer and then the SWAT officer gather intelligence from me before they went in. I also stayed in the background but with the officers. A highly effective operation. I happened to think that small city police are better trained than big city police because the people in the small city are closer to the police. At our local range it's nothing to be practicing with the SWAT team members. Heck, I've practice with the police snipers.

Lodgepole got busted by his lady love.
Its not the first time, probably not the last.