Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire I want to hear the cops side of this one

Welcome, Bighorn mtn girl!!!

Penny

Thank You very much. Lodgepole (Tim) has been telling me for a while I should jump in here and join in and I finally did.
Regards to you and all.

Molly

I saw her first post in Big Game on the Do Ya know women who hunt- I warned her that the coffee at the fire makes ya nutz!GRIN

Good post, DD. I happen to agree with you. Good intel and a LEOs demeaner mean a lot to us civilian knuckleheads. The fear factor does work both ways, the demeaner of the subject means a lot to the mindset of the LEO, but remember the demeaner of the LEO will affect the attitude of the citizenry he encounters! And yes, the dirty Harry kind of cop may be great in a movie, but he disgusts us in real life! (Not to mention terrifies many!)

You are spot on about things being different in a gun toting society. Things would probably have been a little different here in Ohio. Anyone toting a gun here is automatically seen as a possible terrorist! By both the LEOs and the population in general. You should see the looks I get every time I pack out my gear to go to the range!

And yes, I expect LEOs to respond to those who are acting
strangely with firearms. My problem here, is that anyone holding a firearm is considered engaging in suspicious behavior?

In that sense, I envy your society there in Montana.

Welcome, Molly. I've just recently met Tim here on the internet.
You've got a good guy there, gal. Make his retirement special. He's earned it!

Don

Tod,

You're correct as I see it, its a different mentality. And they're getting away with it by claiming the world is dangerous. Guess what...its a dangerous world for everyone out there. Personally I have witnessed outstanding police in potentially very dangerous circumstances work only with their brain, mouth, and personality. Anybody can be senselessly killed by anyone at random...police are the only ones that can assert the defense of "he might have been dangerous so I physically subdued him for my own personal safety" where as the rest of the public would go to jail for assault. The job is dangerous...I don't think that means it calls for physically attacking everyone one you have contact with.

Barkoff,

This aint court, its the Internet and its the court of public opinion. However your question as to why we jump to judge illustrates an excellent point on why that media crap and conjecture must be kept out of the courtroom at trial, even though so many people just think it'd be common sense to let everything everybody knew about anything in. I've also been clear that this case appears to be a bad case for the police but we clearly don't have all the evidence or facts.

et al,

Lawyers and judges take professional oaths...they don't take oaths in court because they don't testify. What lawyers say is not evidence and jurors are instructed on that very plainly.

lodgepole,

I'm glad that came from a retired LEO! PERFECT! Problem is with all these tattooed, skinned headed, roided out, punks with badges on the street these days, there is only the heavy flow of testosterone and machismo combined with the sanction of the government and immunity.

Rem, But who, as the government, sanctions these punks if not the prosecutor and the court system?

We need to quit thinking of the government as....them. We need some personal responsibility here too? You simply cannot work in a chithouse and not smell!

Reminds me of when someone says, "We need to vote them all out of office." Of course they don't mean THEIR elected official!
They mean everyone else's!

I'm still working, 20 year State Trooper. I'd say there is a lot more ot this story than is being reported. I'd also say todays recruits have very little life experience, judgement and skill in dealing with folks. Some of that can be learned, but until you figure out you're a mook same as the guy you're dealing with except you have the badge.... well, some guys never get it.

Thanks, Bret. We need the more seasoned LEOs like yourself to "temper" these guys until they get enough experience to get it or get fired. Thanks for an honest assessment. sir!

Yes, I've learned to wait for ALL the facts myself! You can thank the more patient, older LEOs on this site for that. Some
of them suffered some pretty terrible abuse on my part while they provided me with a pretty good education.

I guess one could say ALL the rest of us, LEO and civilian alike, are victims of the criminal element both in and out of uniform! They are the one's who make us both aprehensive!

Bret says: "I'd also say todays recruits have very little life experience, judgement and skill in dealing with folks."



Lodgepole says Bret is right.

Thanks for the kind words Don but its me thats lucky to have her.
Best camp cook / horse wrangler / fly fisherman / deer hunter / porch sittin partner anywhere. I'm glad she decided to come to the campfire and mingle. She's a native Wyomingite and has been up the creek and over the mountain many times. This should be good.

This is all the old mans side of the story and he is looking at a BIG paycheck no matter if the case goes to court or not, many times a municipality will settle before going into court. The mans demeanor prior was i am sure a big factor in how he was treated also the report made to the police was a big factor. Younger cops somtimes tend to over react also, many of them have little or no experiance dealing with elderly people.
Where an experianced older officer may have talked to the man first younger cops with a report of a man acting strangly and with a gun and knife would have had there adrenalin pumping before they even saw him. Tunnel vision and over reaction and inexperiance is going to be a big expensive lession for them all and the city and department. And they will mkost likely be looking for work soon. About eighty percent of new officers do not make it to retirement, most do not last the first five years.

Very true blinddog, but most city and county governments justify settling out of court by saying its taxpayer money they are spending and its their responsibility to spend it wisely. They maintain that settling out for 20 grand is better than spending 3 times that or more on lawyer fees and winning the case. Its just an issue of the bottom line.

Where I think they miss the boat is that if they spent the bucks on a few cases and showed that they were going for justice not the cheapest way out they would soon send a message and people wouldnt be so quick to file suit with the possibility of walking away with nothing but a big legal bill to pay. I think it would pay off in the long term.

Let me first again say: I am not and never have been a plaintiff's lawyer, nor have I ever done any 1983 cases. That being said the old man is going to have a pretty tough case IMO...of course I'm basing that on what little we know about it from the media accounts. He'll have to prove they violate his civil rights if he goes the 1983 route. And IF he prevails there then there'll be punitive damages I guess. Any other route and he's going to have to prove his actual damages. Reading the media accounts this guy has had this subdurral (sp?) hematoma for several months. According to my wife the trauma nurse, the removal of one this old is a simple operation. Second, this should have been found when he was initially treated for the injuries, not months later...he's going to have to relate the injury to the incident. A lick to the head should have bought him a cat scan at the ER that day...if it had showed then it would have been treated then. (Yes they can be delayed in bleeding according to .280sRN)

Its like I and lodgepole said...these young cops these react..."see subject subdue subject". They don't seem to think or evaluate.

Actually, yes they do, as does the judge.

Well here is another red flag that has me wondering, the old dude is carrying the a copy of the ordinance in his pocket to show people they are in the wrong, OK, but what is he carrying an old badge around for?

The fact he has the paperwork with him and a badge with him, it seems like threatening somebody with a gun might not be out of the realm if he has stepped in enough dog chow.

I would imagine if the officers believed there was a chance he had a gun, they must take him down to the ground for their own safety, and I imagine trying to get an old guy (at 74) down could result in injury even if being careful...or they are just cowboys who deserved to be sued, I just don't know.

"I'm glad that came from a retired LEO! PERFECT! Problem is with all these tattooed, skinned headed, roided out, punks with badges on the street these days, there is only the heavy flow of testosterone and machismo combined with the sanction of the government and immunity."

Roided out eh? A little Nifong mentality there doncha think. seems if a lad is on the juice in my AO he's likely to get fired at a minimum. Prosecuted for sure if he has any in his possession. I've seen it happen three different times in the last 2 years.

I work out hard and weigh 240lbs. Seems if we cross paths you'd automatically brand me like one of those charming fellas you described.

Mac

Im sure you'd have some choice judgements to make about me if you saw me too. So we're even. Actually it's pretty easy to tell the diffence in a guy that stays in shape and one that cheats. Police work draws a certain mind set these days...and the people hiring them don't seemt to care.

Has anyone seen any pics of the old fella involved? Does he look like a 74 year old? Is it possible that he looks much younger than he is and maybe a bit more threatening than the victim he portrays himslef to be. Could this bleeding on the brain possibly be from an unknown but pre-existing condition? The doc said it was from a blow to the melon. How did they take him down? Face first? Is the injury consistent with the takedown? I'm sure the defense will have docs saying otherwise. I'm not passing judgement on the fella, just trying to pick gray matter.

Gun runs are a dime a dozen, but the second you don't take one seriously, you end up dead. There is nothing wrong with stressing officer safety. Seems some are offended if a cop wants to go home to his family in one piece. I do agree that common sense is lacking in many instances.

People all too often cry "gun" to get the cops on scene quicker. If an anonymous person came running up to me in a park screaming gun, my interest will be piqued. I'd weigh into consideration what the witnesse's attitude and demeanor were than I'd ask questions before running off into the unknown. If I came across the subject, I would approach cautiously; maybe with my gun drawn but out of sight. Them little hairs on the back of my neck would be telling me if my azz is danger or not.

I've come across plenty of old timers that could and would put a hurt to someone in a blink of an eye. Especially an overbearing young whipper snapper.

I can't answer for other leos on what passes muster for integrity. I can only carry myself in such a way that I don't disgrace myself or my family name.