i run across a dealer today who closed shop and has a model 70 stealth 223 wssm and a stealth II 25wssm both new in box so is there no love for either of these or they worth looking into? he wants 800 for the stealth II and i forgot what he was asking for the 223 wssm so what do you all think?
I wouldn't even glance at the 25 as it doesn't do anything other cartridge can't do. They screwed the pooch on that round badly. Should have made it a WSM.
The .223 on the other hand I would do everything I could to get it for as cheap as you can get it. I have a few bags of brass for the day I do find one at a good price.
It will definitely be a low volume affair as it is an insanely hot round. But Hornady load data shows it capable of 4600fps with a 40gr. bullet while staying under SAAMI pressures. I have a burning desire to see how that does in the field.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
i run across a dealer today who closed shop and has a model 70 stealth 223 wssm and a stealth II 25wssm both new in box so is there no love for either of these or they worth looking into? he wants 800 for the stealth II and i forgot what he was asking for the 223 wssm so what do you all think?
I had a 223 WSSM for a short while. They are a hot cartridge on par with the Swift.
Another thing to keep in mind is a lot of The initial 223 WSSM’s were reported to have bad barrel thread to receiver fit and it was a cause for bad accuracy.
But even if I had to do a rebarrel I’d still try and get it.
Originally Posted by Geno67
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
Originally Posted by Judman
Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
Originally Posted by KSMITH
My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
The 223 WSSM in factory rifles was a crap shoot. It was supposed to be chrome lined from the factory, but some were and some weren't . Accuracy was all over the place. I still have one with a Pac-Nor 3 groove barrel, and it's easily a sub half-moa rifle. Reloading with the thick necks almost requires annealing for good results. I really enjoyed mine, never shot it "hot". Another problem with the 223 is the ROT, which won't stabilize heavy bullets.
The 25 WSSM is a fabulous concept. Factory rifles tended to be accurate, and to me it was an ideal hunting cartridge for small shooters. Compact rifles, medium recoil. Case capacity is essentially the same as the 257 Roberts, or (GASP) the mythical 25 CM. It was hampered, again, by the very thick necks for reloading. And it doesn't really do anything the 6.5 CM doesn't do much, much cheaper and easier.
The real advantage to the wssm’s is that they can be run in an ar 15. A company called dedicated technologies makes them. I wish they would take off in the AR platform. If you are looking at one in a bolt action Winchester I see no reason to buy a used one for over 450. That was the last days of the new haven Winchester production which I don’t think was very good either for any of their guns
The 223 WSSM in factory rifles was a crap shoot. It was supposed to be chrome lined from the factory, but some were and some weren't . Accuracy was all over the place. I still have one with a Pac-Nor 3 groove barrel, and it's easily a sub half-moa rifle. Reloading with the thick necks almost requires annealing for good results. I really enjoyed mine, never shot it "hot". Another problem with the 223 is the ROT, which won't stabilize heavy bullets.
The 25 WSSM is a fabulous concept. Factory rifles tended to be accurate, and to me it was an ideal hunting cartridge for small shooters. Compact rifles, medium recoil. Case capacity is essentially the same as the 257 Roberts, or (GASP) the mythical 25 CM. It was hampered, again, by the very thick necks for reloading. And it doesn't really do anything the 6.5 CM doesn't do much, much cheaper and easier.
Winchester/Olin brass is really thick, so I switched to the thinner Federal component brass and went happily on my way. I have not tried the Hornady WSSM brass, but have been told that it is good stuff by people who claim to have used it.
All three WSSM cartridges came with 1-10" ROT barrels, limiting the length of component bullets that will stabilize and also work through the magazine.
I shot one whitetail doe with the 223 WSSM, using a 64 grain PP factory load. The distance wasn't very long, less than 200 yards, so impact velocity was still high. There was a light dusting of snow on the ground and the blood spray on the off side of the through and through penetration was impressive. Not a bang/flop, but a bang, stagger, flop. I loaded some 60 grain VMax and Partitions that gave good accuracy when pushed hard.
I have shot several whitetails, a couple dozen coyotes, and hundreds of pdogs with the 25 WSSM. Performance wise it falls into a range between the 257 Roberts and the 25-06, basically a short, fat, 257 AI.
The 25 WSSM rifles made by Browning and Winchester/USRA weren't cataloged with chrome lined barrels and I have not noticed excessive barrel wear, even on a rifle with over 1,600 max pressure loads.
Wal-Mart sold a Winchester/USRA 70 Super Shadow package with an inexpensive 3-9x40 scope on it for $400 back around 2002 thru 2005 in 223 and 243 WSSM.
The 70 Super Shadow was the least expensive Winchester, featuring CM steel, a push feed action, a featherweight contour barrel, and a blind magazine in a synthetic stock.
The 70 Ultimate Shadow and Featherweight were more expensive rifles, featuring either CM or SS steel, a control feed action, featherweight contour barrels, and hinged floorplates. The Ultimate Shadow stocks were synthetic with "grippy" inserts on the sides of the forearm and pistol grip. The Featherweight stocks were walnut and had a very short forearm relative to the 22" barrel. The stocks on the featherweight 70 WSSMs are almost petite in scale.
As with many cartridges that they have introduced, Winchester/Olin has not supported the WSSMs very well, with factory ammo tending to be expensive, hard to find, and limited in bullet weight and style. At one time, Winchester/Olin offered 25 WSSM factory ammo with 85 grain BST, 110 grain AB, 115 grain BST,, and 120 grain PEP bullets. Now they only catalog the 120 grain PEP factory load, so if you want to shoot anything other than medium game, you need to load your own or buy expensive custom reloads.
Although I am a 25 WSSM fan, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone unless that person was looking for a challenge. Being an orphaned cartridge, there are more negative aspects than the positive, particularly in the area of component brass.
Bottom line - I can think of a lot of better ways to spend $800.
When Winchester was bought by FN... I happened to be in a little gun shop in northern Wisconsin. They had 2 - 70's 1 in .223 WSSM and 1 in .25 WSSM. They were in the Dura- Touch Camo. The only camo I ever looked twice at. I bought them both about $ 600.00 + each. The dealer moves guns. They both shoot very well . 1 1/2 @ 200 . The problem is the Dura Touch stocks. They get soft and sticky.
I sent the .225 back to Winchester and they removed the " soft" touch, leaving the camo. Excellent job. I don't know what they used . I got a lot of info on the Campfire about this problem. I tried a lot of solvents , acetone . etc, the whole ChaCha with out any desireable results. Stock was returned in about 5-7 weeks . I have since sent the .223 back.
To the op : I don't think I would pay $ 800.00 for either in the stealth model. And I like 70's a lot, I have nothing against the cals. but I believe at this point I would be making a low ball offer or look for something else.
All that being said, I woud not sell my 70's for $ 800.00
The cartridges are awesome if you get them in a good rifle. The Winchesters tended to be badly done, which gave the WSSMs a bad name. The rumor that those cases don't feed is an example of the pure hogwash that floats around. My A-Bolt feeds as reliably as any rifle I have ever had. The round feeds well in an AR15, too.
Get a Browning and you will have a fine rifle. The 25 WSSM, in particular, is a whitetail rifle deluxe. Hunters really missed out on that one due to bad timing poor factory support.
Living in a world of G17s and 700s, wishing for P7s and 202s
I restocked a couple of my 70 WSSMs with McM Compact stocks and laminated stocks from Richards Microfit. The McM stocks are great, as you would expect, and the Richards stocks are only OK, again, as you would expect.
EDIT: I've never been a Browning A-Bolt fan, but have and still would like a BrownIng TI Mountain Rifle in 25 WSSM if I could find one with a price that I could justify.
Last edited by 260Remguy; 01/27/19. Reason: Added comment
I would not own any new Browning. Probably would not own any new '70,s either.
No feeding issues in my CRF '70's.
Have you looked at the recent Winchester 70’s they are better than the pre 64’s that look like the machining was done with a dull butter knife, never got the pre 64 model 70 hoopla.
I had a 25 wssm in a M70 Featherweight in walnut. It was sub moa all the time. Sold it because I have too many calibers and too many guns. That is my limited experience.
I fancied a 25 WSSM in a Classic Featherweight. Glad I didn't do it.
I shot both the .223 WSSM, and the .25 WSSM in AR rifles (not mine). They seem fine, both were custom guns, plenty accurate and could shoot way out there.
I just don't see the need for a AR as a coyote gun for past 400 yards. I have a 1-9 twist .243 M700 that does well for that and never felt the need for a quicker reload. If shots are close and fast, a fast twist .223 Rem does fine out to 300 yards. But then again I have guns for things that don't make too much sense either.
