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Joined: Oct 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2007
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fishdog,
Thanks for the comments, but I don't always entirely maintain my civility here! 
Its all right to be white!!
Stupidity left unattended will run rampant
Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,887 Likes: 11
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,887 Likes: 11 |
John, naturally I have another question for you. Wouldn't inside neck reaming and then neck sizing with a type s die take care of any neck wall thickness problems? Thanks in advance. Not JB again, but in general inside reaming does not make the neck walls uniform.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,956 Likes: 10
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 29,956 Likes: 10 |
in general inside reaming does not make the neck walls uniform I'd agree. RCBS does sell a tool that fits on their length trimmers. It simultaneously reams the inside and shaves the outside. I.e. neck walls can spring away from a single cutting edge, but there is no such opportunity when it's pinched between two cutting surfaces. Setup is a little cumbersome, but I use feeler gauges between the cutting surfaces to get the desired dimension.
Last edited by 1minute; 02/20/19.
1Minute
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 320 |
Originally Posted by deputy30
I start with brass with 2 thousand or less runout.
Where is that measured? On the neck?
What is your tolerance for neck wall thickness?
My measurements are on the neck.
Neck wall tolerance is 1 thousand or less.
As far as cleaning primer pockets go, I realize a lot of people think its an unnecessary set. I don't know but I have been doing it for 20 plus years so it's part of my routine.
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 220
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 220 |
John, naturally I have another question for you. Wouldn't inside neck reaming and then neck sizing with a type s die take care of any neck wall thickness problems? Thanks in advance. Not JB again, but in general inside reaming does not make the neck walls uniform. I’m not JB either but I’ve read somewhere that brass with lopsided necks usually are erroneous throughout the body as well. I’ve just taken it as gospel and cull the ones with the lopsided necks as they can cause runout problems even if the necks are turned uniform. (Outside turned on a tight pilot) . This happens after they are fired apparently.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,195 Likes: 24
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,195 Likes: 24 |
Yep, cases with lop-sided necks often do turn out to have case walls that are thicker on one side than the other. As a I recall, first read this in something by Glenn Zediker, then checked it out with a gauge that can measure case-wall thickness. In general it turned out to be true, and on firing the cases often "bend" a little bit, which of course also affects concentricity of loaded rounds.
Luckily, these days there's a lot of very uniform brass being made by several companies.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 7,263
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2008
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Sounds like the inside reaming could be part of the problem. If I use a VLD type champfer tool it seems to reduce run out when seating the bullet. A dry lube like motor mica helps too but Hornaday One shot is usually enough especially if I have only moderate neck tension. Neck tension could be an issue if you are not using bushing dies. Redding and RCBS I think both will modify your dies for .002-3 neck tension if you send in three fired cases and the sizer die.
Mostly though I just use a Lee Collet die and only check run out if I am having accuracy issues or suspect out of round cases.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,697
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,697 |
My measurements are on the neck.
Neck wall tolerance is 1 thousand or less.
As far as cleaning primer pockets go, I realize a lot of people think its an unnecessary set. I don't know but I have been doing it for 20 plus years so it's part of my routine. Well, I can understand your confusion on why your run-out is getting so out of hand. I still think that you should see less than 0.002" run-out before seating a bullet. And it could be the seating stem not mating well with the bullet. Maybe a sloppy fit in the shell holder? How many firings does your brass have on it? Have you annealed it at all?
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
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Joined: Oct 2008
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2008
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Another thing I would try is to float the expander and the seater. You can just loosen the screws or put small O rings between the die and lock nut. This works sometimes and other times aggravates run out but usually the former for me.
"When you disarm the people, you commence to offend them and show that you distrust them either through cowardice or lack of confidence, and both of these opinions generate hatred." Niccolo Machiavelli
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 320 |
Sorry for the delay.
I have not annealed the brass. But I did think of the possibility of my brass getting old so I bought new Lapua brass. That did not help.
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Joined: Jun 2001
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Dirtfarmer, I recently found another good use for the trutool- I replaced the firing pin spring on a pre''64 Win. assembly. In the process, it decocks if not careful. By simply pushing the spring and retaining ring forward in an appropriate hole, the safety can be easily returned to its half-safe position, no problem. Wish I had this tool when I first made the mistake of disassembling the bolt without the safety in half position.......
I'd rather be a free man in my grave, than living as a puppet or a slave....
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 646
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 646 |
I just received a Hornady concentricity gauge in the mail today. I set it up per their instructions and proceeded to measure some 2x fired .284 rounds that had been loaded with a type s Redding neck die and an RCBS seater. Win brass, 150 GR NBT'S. It said they all measured .003 or less.
I thought that could not be right, so I measured some 2x fired Lapua 6.5x284 loads that I thought would be out of whack because I used an RCBS #11 shellholder and some of the brass didn't go into the shellholder all the way, so I thought surely the necks would be crooked.
(Redding type s neck die and seater) Same story. Do I not have this gauge set up right? Maybe the bullet shank to ogive spot I have mismeasured? Is this simply an innacurate gauge, or am I just lucky? Any help would be appreciated.
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 646
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 646 |
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 646
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
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Joined: Jan 2004
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 138 |
Of all the different things I've tried, a Concentricity gauge and TruAngle Tool have made the biggest difference in accuracy for me. Put an end to the fliers and head scratching groups when I thought I had a good load . KH
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 220
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 220 |
I just received a Hornady concentricity gauge in the mail today. I set it up per their instructions and proceeded to measure some 2x fired .284 rounds that had been loaded with a type s Redding neck die and an RCBS seater. Win brass, 150 GR NBT'S. It said they all measured .003 or less.
I thought that could not be right, so I measured some 2x fired Lapua 6.5x284 loads that I thought would be out of whack because I used an RCBS #11 shellholder and some of the brass didn't go into the shellholder all the way, so I thought surely the necks would be crooked.
(Redding type s neck die and seater) Same story. Do I not have this gauge set up right? Maybe the bullet shank to ogive spot I have mismeasured? Is this simply an innacurate gauge, or am I just lucky? Any help would be appreciated. The Hornady gauge references off of the rim of the cartridge as well as the bullet.This is nonsensical considering that we are only interested in the body to bullet alignment. If the rim is offset from the body or has a burr from being extracted it will give you excessive run out readings even though the case body to bullet relationship is perfect. The rim can be offset or eccentric and still have match shooting ammo because the body to bullet relationship is good. Get another run out gauge as I think you are or did get lucky. Use the Hornady concentricity gauge to straighten out cartridges . That’s about all it’s good for imo.
Last edited by SawDoctor; 03/06/19.
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