I anneal at every loading to make my 7.62 military brass easier to work. My processing involves knocking back shoulder by 2 thousandths with a Redding body die and sizing the neck with a Lee collet die. My goal is to do best I can with a 308win factory bolt-action hunting rifle.
I use an 18rpm rotating water pan as a heat sink for my cartridge bases, and I used 700degF Tempilaq in the throat to determine my heating time with the way I apply my propane torch. So now now I use a metronome app to measure 6 seconds of torch time for each cartridge case.
This seems to work for me but I would certainly be glad for better ideas.
I only anneal my magnum rifle and AI brass, and only after every 3 firings.
I drop each case in a 9/16" deep socket chucked in an electric drill, and I slowly rotate the case with only the neck in the flame tip of propane torch. I turn the case just until the brass starts to change color, then drop that case out, drop another one in and repeat.
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Thank you for the reply. It sounds like you use the 9/16” socket as a heat sink in similar function as I use my rotating water pan.
I also pay attention to the color changes, but I notice that I get different color changes when I change head stamps. For example, I notice that color changes on my LC brass is harder to see than on commercial head stamps. So I felt that I had to experiment with the Tempilaq to find out what’s going on with my brass. I don’t use the Tempilaq any more now that I feel comfortable with it, but I think I’ll do it periodically to make sure everything is still going well.
Main reason I still anneal with every loading is that I saw something that implies the Lee collet die works better with annealed brass. Can anyone confirm whether that’s the case?
I use a propane torch in a dark room. When the case neck and shoulder just starts showing the faintest color I drop it in a pan and so on and so forth. I have used this method for years and thousands of rounds and it is fast and fairly clean. I have had a number of people say that it won't work but that has not been my experience at all. YMMV.
I use a propane torch in a dark room. When the case neck and shoulder just starts showing the faintest color I drop it in a pan and so on and so forth. I have used this method for years and thousands of rounds and it is fast and fairly clean. I have had a number of people say that it won't work but that has not been my experience at all. YMMV.
That is generally considered too hot by most qualified shooters these days. If you're doing it consistently though, that's more important IMO than the actual temp.
Until recently I was doing it in a brightly lit room, and watching the appearance of the case neck. When it changes to a waxy look, I'd drop them into a pan. That seemed to work well, and was much lower temp than faintly red in a dark room.
Recently though I started using salt bath annealing, using a small lead casting pot and a PID temp controller for salt temp. That method is very consistent, and is both easy to do, and faster than any other non-automated method I've used. The equipment will cost ~$60-$150 depending what you have already and how you set it up, but the results are very good.
I use a propane torch in a dark room. When the case neck and shoulder just starts showing the faintest color I drop it in a pan and so on and so forth. I have used this method for years and thousands of rounds and it is fast and fairly clean. I have had a number of people say that it won't work but that has not been my experience at all. YMMV.
That is generally considered too hot by most qualified shooters these days. If you're doing it consistently though, that's more important IMO than the actual temp.
Until recently I was doing it in a brightly lit room, and watching the appearance of the case neck. When it changes to a waxy look, I'd drop them into a pan. That seemed to work well, and was much lower temp than faintly red in a dark room.
Recently though I started using salt bath annealing, using a small lead casting pot and a PID temp controller for salt temp. That method is very consistent, and is both easy to do, and faster than any other non-automated method I've used. The equipment will cost ~$60-$150 depending what you have already and how you set it up, but the results are very good.
Could you expand on this? Type of salt, supplier, technique, etc. Thanks.
He beat me to it, but I'd be happy to add any other info I can. I'm using Nitrate of Soda for my salts, but have also used potassium nitrate. Both work fine. I also use the same system for heat treating the stainless steel parts I machine, and the two salts have slightly different effect on surface appearance, so I'll anneal with whichever I happen to be using for heat treat.
I made a little sheet metal holder, similar to shown in one of the videos in those other threads. One could do it holding by hand, but the depth would be less consistent.
Cool vid, and great idea.. I chuck my .308 brass in a cordless drill- they just fit the chuck, the shoulder and neck exposed, spin them slowly in the propane torch for around 9 seconds out towards the end of the flame (Lapua brass) 7 seconds for Nosler brass, I am at the same time watching for the brass to just start to change color, then drop them out of the drill onto a terry cloth towel. Do not miss the towel and land on the carpet. The time exposed to the flame will vary depending upon the torch, mine does not adjust to a pinpoint like the video above so it takes longer than normal. I anneal after every firing. I've not had any case failures other than loose primer pockets after 10 - 12 firings or so, and seating force seems really consistent. For my 300 Win brass, I chuck up the fixture I use to turn the necks in my drill and everything else remains the same. Practice with some old brass first until you feel comfortable doing it for real.
It's VERY easy to put together a salt bath annealing station. Here's my setup:
Lab stand, about $25, including burrette clamp. You can probably figure out an equally effective setup without spending that much.
I use an electronic thermocouple thermometer, about $20, plus a stainless steel thermocouple, about $12. You can get bimetallic cooking grill thermometers for around $8-10, and I think they would work as well.
The Lee melting pot can be had for about $40. There are Chinese sources for smaller solder pots that cost less than this. The Lee pot's thermostat is not located within the pot, and that makes it a bit dodgy. I just watch the temperature, and adjust accordingly. Somewhere between about 785 and 825 F works very well. Brass is annealed in 3 seconds flat, and the case head is left hard.
You'll need potassium and sodium nitrate. The smallest quantity I could conveniently get was 1 pound each, total $20.
They make thermocouple temperature controllers for K thermocouples, so you could go that route and not bother with the meter. The ones I've seen do not have enough current switching capacity to run a melting pot, and so would require an external relay.
The molten salt forms a protective coating on the surface of the melting pot, and keeps it looking nice.
It's best to decap before annealing. If you don't you get salt remaining in the case, and get the ugly crust shown in the video.
Brass and the nitrate mixture are compatible. Dunking your brass will not harm it.
Per the video - it seems that with the cleanup from the corrosive fluid that process leads to a couple more steps than a torch set-up although I don't know which method would anneal the brass better . Interesting though , as usual more than one way to skin a cat .
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Per the video - it seems that with the cleanup from the corrosive fluid that process leads to a couple more steps than a torch set-up although I don't know which method would anneal the brass better . Interesting though , as usual more than one way to skin a cat .
LOL. The cleanup from the "corrosive fluid" (i.e. molten salt) is just rinsing in water. That's it.
Most of us doing this just drop the annealed cases in a bucket of water. That dissolves the salt, and isn't any more work than when people who torch anneal drop their cases in water.
You'll need potassium and sodium nitrate. The smallest quantity I could conveniently get was 1 pound each, total $20.
You don't actually need both. Either one by itself (usually sodium nitrate) also works the same way for what we're doing. The main advantage of mixing those two salts is the lower melting point, which matters for some heat treat operations like tempering of carbon steel, but we are using it at a much higher temperature anyway so that's irrelevant.
I happen to have a 1-pound bottle of the “Spectracide Stump Remover” which happens to be pure potassium nitrate. I’m using it for another purpose but I think you can use it for this. Cost for that at local hardware store is $7.47. https://www.lowes.com/pd/16-oz-Stump-Remover/4764059
The salt bath annealing method does indeed sound intriguing but I think I’ll stick with my current rotating water pan torch method until I perceive a problem with it.
The salt itself seems cheap, but it looks like I’d have to invest about $46 for a Lee lead heater and another $44 for K-thermocouple & temperature meter to make everything work. I’d rather spend my money on powder and bullets for now.
I have a casting thermometer so I'll see if I can get by with that.
That should work just fine.
The salt bath annealing process is really just like annealing with molten lead, except that the salt is a lot easier to clean off the brass. The effect and consistency, and equipment required, are all the same though.
So just how cheaply can you set up molten salt annealing? A couple of the suggestions offered on this thread got me to thinking. I have not tested the following, but they ought to work:
Thermometer, $6.49 This will probably require some kind of little sheet metal bracket to hold it on the melting pot.
I was excited about the possibility of just using potassium or sodium nitrate alone. The melting point is just fine. But the boiling point is below the optimum working temperature, so I think we are stuck with using the 60/40 mixture.
Quote
I happen to have a 1-pound bottle of the “Spectracide Stump Remover” which happens to be pure potassium nitrate. I’m using it for another purpose but I think you can use it for this. Cost for that at local hardware store is $7.47. https://www.lowes.com/pd/16-oz-Stump-Remover/4764059
The temperature control on the Lee melter is separate from the pot, which makes it hard to get stable repeatable temperature settings. The Chinese version that I linked could possibly be a lot better, but that remains to be seen.
I was excited about the possibility of just using potassium or sodium nitrate alone. The melting point is just fine. But the boiling point is below the optimum working temperature, so I think we are stuck with using the 60/40 mixture.
No, it isn't. Have you actually done any research on this, or thought about the fact that other people are actually using those salts by themselves successfully? If someone is using it and it works, why would you claim that it doesn't?
I did take the time to research the issue before I spoke, and found a couple of credible sources that put the boiling/decomposition point of potassium nitrate at 400C/752F. Here's one of the links:
This seems to conflict with the info you posted, and at the moment, I have no way to resolve which, if either, is correct. I suppose that one of us could run a sample up to temperature and see what happens.
Annealing is linear with time, but cubic with temperature. If you want a quick anneal so that the mouth of the case can be done before too much heat reaches the case head, then 800F is a good choice. That is where I run my bath. You can anneal below that temperature, but it takes much longer.
I know 2 people that have this set up. Very consistent, fast and no clean up, but for $1500 to get going I will stick with the salt bath. just as consistent but you do have cleaning and drying time, well worth 1/10 the cost
This seems to conflict with the info you posted, and at the moment, I have no way to resolve which, if either, is correct. I suppose that one of us could run a sample up to temperature and see what happens.
What part of "I use it and it works" escaped you? I don't know why your link lists the temp it does, but something's not right there. Some research on salt bath annealing or salt bath heat treatment will show you otherwise as well.
It doesn't boil at 752F, not even close. I use it at 900F for both annealing brass and heat treating stainless steel (that is 900 per a K type TC and PID temp controller, not some random thermometer). The chart I posted and others I found all said 930 F as the maximum working temp for potassium nitrate; I haven't found any reason to doubt that, and the boiling temp may be even higher.
As to the other one - sodium nitrate's listed max working temp is only 2 degrees lower than the 60/40 mix you're saying we have to use. Both are way higher than needed for annealing.
Edit - both of these salts do have a tendency to fizz a little bit and create bubbles on the surface as they melt from ground particles - that can happen around 750 F and maybe some researchers are mistaking that for the boiling point. Once it settles down though, both of these can be used up to at least 900 F in my experience, as I said above.
Once it settles down though, both of these can be used up to at least 900 F in my experience, as I said above.
I believe you are correct.
I just ran a sample of it up to 930F, with no problems. So apparently potassium nitrate can be used alone for annealing at 800F.
Data trumps whatever we find on the internet, and we both agree. Most sources recommend temperatures in the low 700s for annealing, and I didn't realize you were working at higher temperature like I do.
Edited to add: There is one problem with pure potassium nitrate. When it cools, it expands. My sample is now solid again, and firmly jammed in the bottom of my heating cup. The 60/40 mixture contracts when it cools. It just cleanly falls out as a solid disk.
I know 2 people that have this set up. Very consistent, fast and no clean up, but for $1500 to get going I will stick with the salt bath. just as consistent but you do have cleaning and drying time, well worth 1/10 the cost
I feel the cost of quality tools are worth the expense. $1500 seems eccentric. In this case, buy once cry once. Main objective was to dismiss the cumulative heat from the torches.
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This guy has shown out of stock for over a year now. He does not respond to inquiries. He is basically disinterested.
I was at his house a couple of months ago to pick up more salt and another kit for a friend. He has lots of stock and ships all over the world. He is definitely interested in your business.
This guy has shown out of stock for over a year now. He does not respond to inquiries. He is basically disinterested.
I was at his house a couple of months ago to pick up more salt and another kit for a friend. He has lots of stock and ships all over the world. He is definitely interested in your business.
I believe you. But still, he has never answered any of my many inquiries.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country." Robert E. Lee
I recently switched from torch to salt bath annealing. I’m pleased with it because it’s easier and I can tell the annealed brass is softer to work with.
I did not rely on the gentleman from canada although I am sure he sells nice stuff. I purchased a Lee melter, a nice thermocouple thermometer with stainless steel probe, and it wasn’t hard to make my own rack to fit in my melter. I prefer using a melter rack to hold my brass because it gives me a bit of safety from splashing salts. And of course I used Spectracide Stump Remover powder for potassium nitrate, and 16-0-0 fertilizer for sodium nitrate as I mentioned in my post several pages above.
I heat my salts to 900degF and I use a metronome app to time my 308win brass at 5 seconds.
I anneal based on a method that was popular on this august forum back around 2006.
I work in a dark room. I use a propane torch, and a pie pan full of water. I hold the brass in my fingers and heat it with the torch, turning it as I go. At the merest hint of color, I release the brass and it falls into the water. I also count slowly. Let's say I'm seeing color at Ten. The next round, I'm ready to release at 9. I know if I get to 11, I'll burn my fingers. After I'm done annealing, I'll either pop the rounds in a toaster oven at 300 for 20 minutes to drive out the water, or I'll place them in the vibratory cleaner with corn cob.
I've done quite a bit of brass since 2006 of all sorts and sizes. No splits. No problems.
Great article - thanks , I don't think a company would lay out false information in this day & age . Get caught BS'ing people and it will be very bad for business .
Probably won't change the minds of folks who use the Salt Bath System because they've loaded & shot their brass accurately many many times .
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Great article - thanks , I don't think a company would lay out false information in this day & age .
Sure about that? Do you really think a company selling $1500 annealing machines would publish any hint that a sub-$100 DIY method might be as good? The "results" of that article were a foregone conclusion before they ever started. Propaganda is right; it's just a marketing article. As someone pointed out on another forum, this is no different than a Chevy or Ford commercial saying their truck is better than anyone else's.
You could also ask yourself this - why does the "salt bath annealed" brass in that article look like it was flame annealed? Salt bath annealing leaves a distinct look on the brass and it doesn't look like that as far as I've ever seen.
Great article - thanks , I don't think a company would lay out false information in this day & age .
Sure about that? Do you really think a company selling $1500 annealing machines would publish any hint that a sub-$100 DIY method might be as good? The "results" of that article were a foregone conclusion before they ever started. Propaganda is right; it's just a marketing article. As someone pointed out on another forum, this is no different than a Chevy or Ford commercial saying their truck is better than anyone else's.
You could also ask yourself this - why does the "salt bath annealed" brass in that article look like it was flame annealed? Salt bath annealing leaves a distinct look on the brass and it doesn't look like that as far as I've ever seen.
I didn't realise their machine cost that much , I've been wrong before . Never seen a salt bath system other than a video ..
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