Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire What’s main cause of PTSD in military

Germany officially recognized the emotional -mental effects on its soldiers [due to WW1] and paid them pensions.

but some yrs later( around 1926?) Germany simply no longer recognized what we today call combat related 'PTSD'

fast forward to the Eastern Front...>> The incomprehensible scale of utter destruction/profilgation of human life
both soldier and civilian,
the level of dehumanizing, cruelty, callousness ,brutality,, indifference, hunger, cold, illness, away from family etc...
a whole conglomerate of miseries and suffering,....effected many a German soldier on the Eastern front.
...If the Reich was to recognize 'PTSD'...they would have had a real problem on their hands as to the numbers claiming
such condition valid or not, simply wanting to avoid or escape the harshest most prolonged living hell battlefront of WW2.
......its produced/forged- some truly hardcore formidable -even fantical soldiers indifferent to the suffering and death
but it also produced lots of badly effected ones as well...but it was expected that they fight on regardless.

The Reich used a number of military 'Field police' ...Feldgendarmerie, ...Feldjägerkorps ..and Geheime Feldpolizei
to deal with those who decided upon themselves that it was time to give up the fight or attempt to desert.
There were Feldgendarmerie units for each branch of the army ....there was even an SS-Feldgendarmerie.

They were much hated by the Wehrmacht who refered to them as Kettenhunde or 'Chain Dogs' ..

To control the panic of swarms of soldiers who tried to rush aircraft that had landed to evacuate wounded from the 6th army entrapment
west of Stalingrad, the chain dogs would machine gun them to prevent utter chaos, panic and mayhem from breaking out, it usually
worked to some degree....




The regular German soldier could only dream of such luxurious levels of R&R time or such recognition of a soldiers burn out ,
breakdown, or deemed combat ineffectiveness...no doubt the Field commanders knew the problem existed and knew how
the condition of their soldiers was effecting their progress and performance, but the big dudes in Berlin didn't really want to know about it.




Allied Pilots were treated far better than German pilots, that fact is easily reflected in the kill counts
of Fighter aces from both sides.....the extended combat exposure for German pilots is what produced so many high count Aces
numbers that the allied pilots could only fantasise about.

The highest aerial kills for a US Ace WW2, is 40 and he's lauded a hero.

one German Ace of many, [who nobody really remembers his name] , suffered 'PTSD' during the war after achieving 180 + kills,
he just broke down and lost his will to continue in aerial combat, [which he put down in large part to the loss of his friends and
the enormous continuous strain placed on him from extended-relentless combat exposure]...Mentally ,physically and emotionally
he was gone/spent.
.......his reward?....he was severely chastised and berated for being a 'coward' by a certain high rank Marshal.
Folks like that who drop their bundle with 'PTSD' are not good for the war propaganda machine,,,,
you needed to be A no fail poster boy in order to be venerated....

Two examples in my family of post-traumatic something.......

My own father, Sixth Marines, Okinawa: Paranioia, flashbacks, episodes, nightmares in the years following, so bad his fiance’s dad urges her (my mom) to leave him. She flies sure that if she does he will kill himself. Later years with us kids he never talks about Okinawa, starts to get choked up whenever we talk about it as adults so we never do.

A cousin, so gung-ho he joined the Marines wanting to be sent to Vietnam. In Vietnam he is pressed into a sniping duties. Decades later he’s up on a hillside deer hunting with a scoped rifle and sees his neighbor on the dirt road down below, has sudden vivid flashbacks from Vietnam. Stops hunting, goes home immediately, hasn’t hardly picked up a gun since. Tells me that in his quiet moments he vividly recalls the faces of the men he shot, wonders how they would have made out in life if he had not shot them. When his own son went in the military he insisted his son avoid the Army and Marines or anything close to combat, his son joined the Air Force.

Google Days of actual battle WWII vs Vietnam. It leads to Myths and Facts of vietnam.

40 days out of 4 years for WWII
240 days out of 1 year for Vietnam


Seems off.
Who knows?

That is accurate..

Some people have a better head for it than others. Some find a way to process it better than others. Everyone comes back broken to an extent, some can overcome it eventually and move forward, others cannot. I had my issues but was able to put them to bed and be done with it. Sadly, others don't have the mental fortitude to ride it out and own it.

It's not just in recruit training. The low stress lives we live today don't prepare people for the stresses of combat. Single motherhood makes it even worse. Rough and tumble play at a young age, such as they get from fathers, makes them more stress resilient later in life. Same with the "low stress" basic. If you can't handle getting yelled at by a DI, how do you expect to handle the horrors of combat?

Everyone's affinity for and tolerance of severe and or chronic stress is different. Someone who chooses a career in a high stress/conflict field will probably fare better over the long term than those who do so out of lack of choice or altruism. Draftees, volunteer EMS, FD often are affected but but deal with their pain. Some people seek out the stimuli and thrive on it.

I have a night out every month w/ a group of combat vets that represent every conflict since Korea. Some were hard core door kickers who thrived on it, others were ordinary grunts who did their duty w/ no regrets. Some of us regard our combat time as the highlight of our lives while others were just happy to have survived. All have some degree of PTSD, none admit the fact to others or receive $ other than pensions or disability compensation.

I think that many comment outside of their personal knowledge or experience base just to hear themselves talk.

The suicide rate of Veterans is a national disgrace indicative of a country that has forgotten 9/11 and twice elected a creep named barak. Stupid people are frightened of a "new World Order" and ignorant of the continuing threat from the Ummah.


mike r

This ^^^ But, there were also the guys who were screwed up before going to VN. They come back exceptionally messed up. Some also used it as an excuse to be plain and simple a$$holes. But, for the most part kids who were never exposed to hard work, hunting or butchering their own meat whether it be cows, pigs, chickens or game shot wild in the field had to adjust to a new normal when it come to bodies being damaged by guns and bombs.

In the Army they all get 3 man rooms with a TV and a cell phone to talk to mommy or their girlfriend. I think we need to go back to open squad bays and communication by post card or snail mail at least in basic training. Basic training needs to be 12 weeks long like the Marines. It doesn't have to be as hard as the Marines but I don't see where 12 weeks without a cell phone and only letters from mommy and the girlfriend would hurt anyone. Something needs to happen to get these guys into the right frame of mind before the $hit hits the fan.

kwg

^^^^^^
this both a_s and kw_

I agree making life easier during basic ill prepares them for the real thing. Also with the observation that few have led a "hard" life in terms of hard work, seeing animals butchered, shot, etc. Perhaps more desensitization training along those lines. Video of actual battlefield injuries, etc. Of course, nothing totally prepare them for the real thing but could dampen the realty shock.

My wife who is a Clinical Social Worker would agree with you. PTSD is also just not something troops get either. Anyone that has been through a traumatic event can get it. My wife works with teenagers now that have been raped and abused that many have PTSD. She spent a year in grad school doing imbedded mental health with the Army, so she has seen that as well. She also claims that some people that claim PTSD for the disability benefits do not suffer from PTSD, but many coordinators in the VA system are not going to deny them the claim. For those that truly have PTSD, I truly feel for them, those playing the game to get money, need to knock the crap off.

You must be getting hit with lugnuts then.......

Fellas,

Very tough topic.

BLUF: Every man has to deal with combat in their own way; some can handle it much better than others, some not well at all.

I started working for Uncle Sam in 71. My last three back to back combat tours were out of Shkin and the Kunar Valley in 09-11. Been shot, stabbed, burned, blown up and at last count 26 broken bones- generally paid my dues.

As I was the "Old Man" with each of my Teams, I always made it a point to talk with the Chaplain and the Medics. Those guys carry a hell of a burden. Chaplains were always happy to do a dump on me as I was not in their chain of command and they needed to talk to someone to dump the ruck of emotions, fear and terror they carried by way of their MOS. Medics (18-Ds) were always squared away, but it was a tough job.

I have seen some real dirt bags who play the system. My wife (House Hold -6 ) goes to some hair dresser gal whose husband was a legal clerk behind the wire all the time and got some ear issue; got out with 100% and claims PTSD.

Saw other men who obviously have some issues and will not go near the VA for myriad reasons, mostly not ever wanting to look like a puzzy or in fear of being put on some list where they may lose some weapons rights.

Good friend of mine is a Two Star who got blown up twice on two different deployments- a friggin General with two Purple Hearts! They put out IED's trying to get him. Lost his Aide in the front seat via a sniper before they blew him to hell. He has a dog and will not let that mutt get out of sight. Great guy, paid his dues, but he has something going on.

So yeah, some really have something going on, and others are really dirtbags. Not sure the Docs are even to first base on this issue yet.

When I came back my buddies would always ask me, "Hey, you got any PTSD?" My standard and heart felt answer was always, "Hell no, but I sure gave it!"

Been in a few sporty situations, done a little shooting and to this day have never had a blip on my radar about any of it... BUT, I still wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat, terrified that I am not ready for Plebe Math- truth.

While there are some smells and images that never leave, I think the biggest trauma is going through all that and finding out the people that sent you are as bad in some ways as the people who you were sent to kill. If I had my way politicians who send our boys to war would have a choice. Either lead the charge or get taken out back and shot.

So, to those of you riding the “basic is too easy, that’s why PTSD” stupid wagon, how do you explain it in WWI and WWII and Korea?

‘Cause basic was for damn sure not easy back then, them kids weren’t spoiled or lost in a made-believe world of their cell phones, and plenty of those young, and old, men came back with the “thousand yard stare” or “shell shocked .”

I think you don’t know what the fuque you’re blabbering about.

I think if you only knew violence and trauma your entire upbringing you are conditioned and learn (and struggle to deal with the shock) but , maybe alot of these kids have been been blessed with good upbringings, and have never ever experienced anything traumatic or violent then all of a sudden they're thrown right in to the epitome of trauma all at once. I had a childhood that I do not wish upon any child anywhere on the planet and it still Fks with me after all these years but I just deal with it. Keep working, look for the good and happy things in life. Gotta keep on trucking and try to enjoy life .

Big +1 on that. Many die so that a few remain in power.

Not all, probably not 'most'....but definitely some.

The old saying goes, adversity does not build character, it reveals it.

Kind of like induced stress being a tool to identify the mentally unsuitable. Remove that as a training tool/filter, and those individuals will not be revealed until they are in a sh..it..storm somewhere.

I've watched many of my fellow corrections officers succumb to PTSD. You think, " That's just an inmate" or " that's just a criminal" but the fact is that's still a human being.

I've watched them resign, screw up so bad they got fired. Drink themselves to death, smoke 5 packs a day. Die at 60-62 years old. Marriages fall apart, domestic violence, suicide.

The thing is in corrections there is no support. Basically it's, " Write your report and get back on your post." And that comes before you even digest any of it. That supervisor wants to get his report package done so he can go home on time. We have this 'Crisis team" but it's really a farce.

Of all the stabbings, beatings, murders and suicides I've seen the image that haunts me most is a 24 year old smaller white guy being raped by three black guys. Blood running down his legs, he was sent out and had surgery to repair the damage. 6 months later he was told he had HIV. He then hung himself, and he was due for release 2 months later. Doing 2 years for cocaine possession.

And what did they do with the guys that raped him? I have no idea. I know that I would have been called as a witness being the officer who discovered it and stopped it. I was never even spoken to by outside law enforcement.

Yeah. We dug her out of the debris in the basement.

Sort of late here. Had relatively benign duty in Da Nang (USN). My greatest frustration was not being able to hit back whenever we were attacked. We just sought cover, toughed it out, and emerged to find damaged people and facilities.

I exited to civilian life and college and did just fine, but a rifle shot in the vicinity while hunting would have my face in the dirt within a millisecond. Took a few seasons to get past that. The first automatic fire I heard about 20 years later though still put me down.

Quickly meeting/marrying a good woman and having nothing but academic challenges for about 10 years post duty probably helped.

I suspect series traumatic events where one can have no affect on the outcome might be one of the root causes. One fights it until he gives up and enters a frustrating state of learned helplessness. One simply feels he just doesn't matter anymore.