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Sonnie nailed it. The politicians and Police departments are using LEOs as revenue collecters.

I said it before, you'll find a--holes in any profesion, unfortanately the bad LEOs color all of the others with the same brush.
7mm

Then obviously your guys are doing it the right way, good.



No apology needed, was a good excuse to bang my drum.



That is the root of most evil today, but it is a two way street. Todays Peace Officer has to set the example and lead the way, they are the most visable ones.



Right back to the respect thing. The youth of today have no respect for authority or their fellow man for that matter. This IMHO falls on the heads of PARENTS and the schools.




You betcha, They been around since the beginnig. Most I know are as you say, professionals, but the few ruin it for the majority and then the US vs THEM mentality sets in. A viscious circle if ever I saw one! Thanks for the intelligent responses, I enjoy inserting my "oldtimers" view point in for consideration of the "kids" on the block. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What the heck do you expect them to do, they can't strike, they ain't truck drivers!

And yep, I have seen some real bad cookies under the age of majority, my Mother-in-Law could curdle your blood with some of her stories. You see she was an Assistant Warden for one of Illinois Max security JUVINILE facilities, you know the murders, rapist, armed robbers ET AL. Some as young as 10! Killed a neighbor for their welfare check then cry themselves to sleep in the jug.

Me too, and boy do I ever miss it.

In fact a couple of times early in my career I had "plain old citizens" help me out of sticky situations, thank GOD!



Way too logical Sonnie, heck crime might just go down. I think it Heinline that said 'An ARMED society is a POLITE society."

One big reason for the screw ups in you local police departments rest with the leadership.Average police chief today is not a professional cop-he is a professional politician concerned only with his image with the city fathers.Knows little or nothing of how to do the job on the street.Promotes the officers that are best at kissing his butt rather than those that do a good competent job.Starts feel good programs that sound good to citizens but don't do anything to curtail crime.If you want to improve your local police department start at the top.

Frank, I couldn't agree with you more. Look at it this way, if there were no crime the police department would loose funds and shrink. No police chief wants that. Kinda like the NRA needs the anti crowd to keep their jobs. -- Everything has an angle this day and time and most of it is pointing at getting in the working mans pocket. --- Bush is the first honest man to try and actually give something back to the public. I won't get any but glad for those that do. -- no

Say Centurion, that's a pretty broad brush you're painting police management with. I've worked in city management for over 25 years, and have evaluated and hired a number of police and fire chiefs. The top candidates are thoroughly professional and have years of experience as well as education. Not to say there aren't bad chiefs, especially in podunk towns that can't afford to pay for talent, but those I have worked with have been top notch. It's been my experience that cops who bad mouth their command staff are most often the ones who have been too lazy to get the education to prepare themselve for advancement, and want to get promoted based on seniority, or on the basis of a mickey mouse civil service exam where the questions are provided in advance, so they run down the hard working, ambitious officers. Yeah, there are brown nosers in every group, but any manager will favor employees who do their jobs diligently. It's also the lazy asses who are the ones who hide behind their union. They also tend to be the ones who hate their jobs, but don't have the guts or ambition to find a different line of work, so they just hang around, do as little as possible, and wreck morale and teamwork. Maybe I've been lucky, but the police departments I've worked with have been staffed with real professionals at all rank levels. As far as chiefs being political, get real. Government is about politics, and if you think it's easy balancing the interests of various constituencies, try working in government management or running for office.

Paul39

amen Ira, well said.

Thanks

Mac

Paul, sorry to say you hide just as all politicians. Most rural areas cannot afford college degree personnel, there are more rural areas,(small towns), than major cities, the small town police see all this big city stuff and want the same black clothing, masks, assault gear, so they can look up to date and ready to go. There is no way a police department is going to intimidate anyone inclined to do wrong. I am supprised more of these tin stars are not assinated in their autos. Probably the reason for the masks. -- no

no,

Me a politician? Hiding? Remember me, we were in the AF at the same time. I'm an employee, not an elected official, and I agree with the basic premise that the black-clad ninja assault teams are overkill. My beef with Centurion is that he made a sweeping generalized attack on police management. I have worked with law enforcement for years, and could write a dissertation on police personnel, but that is outside the purpose of this site. They are an interesting and varied group. Like I said, most of the LE folks I have worked with have been great people, but I have seen my share of the others too. With the awesome power we give the police, they need to meet high standards and be held accountable. I have no use for the bad apples, and do everything in my power to keep them from being hired and straightened out or removed whereever possible.

Paul

Paul 39,
I worked in law enforcement for 20 years. I have a bachelors degree in the field and turned down two promotions because I liked working the street instead of flying a desk.I have never belonged to a union.My last chief of police was appointed by the mayor who had two qualifications-he was republican and a tv repairman.I always tried to keep morale up but that became real difficult when they give you a list of people never to arrest because they are politically connected. If you have that much time in city management and have never seen this type of situation you are either very lucky or are in the ozone.If it is because you are unaware of the actual workings of your department then you are part of the problem.

Frank-- Good to see you posting again. Where you been hiding?

BCR

Morning Centurion

Like I said in my earlier post, maybe I have been lucky in working with good PDs. Just one man's experience. I'll bet you've encountered the slugs and whiners I described during your career as well. After the AF I worked a number of grunt jobs and went to college late; didn't become a manager until my late 30s. Now if I'd been really smart I'd have become a cop like my brother and been retired by now. So, it's off to work I go.

Paul

Hi Boggy-Been right here lurking.Bout two weeks ago a head cold settled in my ears, messed up hearing and balance.It's clearing now.Didn't really intend to get on my soapbox on this issue.Appears I gored somebody's ox.Certainly not the first time.You coming up this way with NO in the spring?

I understand the police, not just today but always, have to deal with the real dregs of society and can get a little jaded. Understanding that they have a hard job and that a lot of people treat them badly, I have always tried to treat uniformed officers like "just folks", friendly and politely. So can someone please explain these to me?

At the Boise River Fest, a big three day family event, two officers on horseback were watching the crowd. My wife, 40-ish with 11 year old daughter in tow, and just about the most outgoing and animal loving person I know, wanted to pet the horse. I winked at her and jokingly said, �just be sure you pet the horse and not the police officer� and gave the officer a friendly smile. His response? �Lay your hands on this horse and I�ll throw your a** in jail for obstructing an officer.� Okay, could he not have said, "ma'am, I have to keep an eye on this crowd so I'm afraid I can't let you distract my horse," or something to that effect?

My wife and I went out to dinner and a movie a few summers ago, I had not been out after dark for weeks as it doesn�t get dark until ten o�clock. Local police officer pulled me over for a headlight out. Okay, no problem, I did not know it was out, thanks for letting me know. I understand that any traffic stop is tense for an officer, so I keep my hands on the wheel in plain sight. Responded to the officer politely, not fawning or smart-ass �Yes, Sir!, No, Sir!�, just friendly and polite. He called in my license number and name for a routine check, apparently he could not get a hook up to his central computer or whatever. I asked him to be sure to use my name AND social security number as there is a fellow in Florida with my same name who has an arrest record a mile long � I have had confusion with that character before. After 10 minutes he came back and said �I can�t run your license number, the computer is down�. Me: �That�s okay, I can asssure you I�m not wanted for anything.� Him: �Don�t give me that crap. I can�t prove anything now, but if you�re lying to me I�ll hunt you down and throw your a** in jail.�

Someone drove off and left a brand new Buckmark .22 on a shooting bench at the range two years ago. I did everything I could to find the owner � posted a notice in the club newspaper, left big signs on that bench and at the club bulletin board, called the sheriff�s department of three counties, even posted a big note on my table at the Boise gun show �Found pistol � identify it to claim it�. After six months no luck. At that same range one day I met a acquaintance who is a sniper in the Boise Police Department � real nice guy and a helluva shot. I have been in a local theater group with his wife for years. We aren't buddy-buddy but are at least on a first name basis with each other. He was with another officer. I explained the situation and asked for their advice as to what more I could do to locate the owner. The �other� officer proceeded to tell me in no uncertain terms (i.e. graphically and profanely) just what he could and would do to me and how long a jail term I was in for if I sold or otherwise unlawfully disposed of stolen or lost property.

Went in to the Payette Sheriff�s department to renew my concealed carry license. Went up to the deputy behind the desk and showed him my current license and paperwork for renewal. Since being issued the previous license I had married and due to not having to eat my own cooking had gained some weight, he asked if that was me (referring to the picture on the old license) and I said yes, one wife and lots of good home cooking ago. Again, just trying to be friendly and make polite conversation. Him: �Look, a**hole, don�t get smart with me! I�ll tear this f***ing application up and stick it up your a**�.

Now, I am a middle aged white guy usually dressed in casual business wear � Dockers and a button down shirt. Four out of four encounters with law enforcement in non-threatening situations and I am treated like scum. I don�t attract a lot of enemies, those of you that have met me know I�m not generally an a**hole (at least I hope not). Maybe it is just my rear end that is the problem � they always seem to want to throw it in jail. But seriously, after being treated like this so consistently why am I supposed to believe that the police are my friends? Did I just happen to catch four separate people in really bad moods? I know that one fellow who is a Boise cop so I know that they can be friendly.

So I really hate to admit this, I really do, but I see uniformed law enforcement officers as the enemy. Someone to avoid. You can get on my case for this, you can argue with me if you want, but I have to be honest. It bothers me, a lot, that I have come to think like this. But I do.

Man oh man can I relate, Jim. Every cop I have run into in the last 5 years has treated me like a thug. I went to THEM with questions or concerns and I was the bad guy all of the sudden. I avoid them like butt rash now. Flinch

First, I'll start with all the usual disclaimers; Cops have a tough job yadda yadda blah blah blah. The fact is that there is a dangerous rift between the police and the policed. Somewhere along the journey to become a LEO, the individual is told that they are a separate and distinct culture from the people at large. A little further along, they see themselves as above the law.

Here's a simple test, Ask your favorite LEO (assuming that you're friendly with one) this; If you were on duty, saw a car driving erratically and pulled it over, only to discover your partner at the wheel blind drunk, would you arrest him and take him into custody to face charges of DUI?

So c'mon all you LEO types, what's your answer?

Jim in Idaho

First, it sounds like you ran into four people having a bad week. If in fact you did act as you stated (and I am not doubting you) 1 you should have asked to see a supwrvisor, 2 if not forthcoming, you should have filed a formal complaint to the Department AND the governing body (city admin, county commission, state police Hq) IN WRITING. 3 Follow up with phone calls and go to the press if you still get no satisfaction.

The horse thing really puzzles me, my daughter is second in command of the possee. They, unless actually doing crowd control encurage people to meet their horses, same with the K-9 unit here. They do demonstrations and let the people meet the dogs.


ebd10

First, yes they do have a tough job, but they choose to do it so should have no complaints.
Second, we had a Deputy on our Dept. that was a serious drinker, caught him one night about 4:00 AM. since we are on the same Dept. I called Florida Highway Patrol and had them arrest him. Had he been a bit tipsy I probably would not have, but he was a danger to the public and himself, so he went to the can on DUI and lost his job. He confronted me a couple months later and asked how I could do that to a "brother" Deputy. My answer then and would be still. When you chose to break the law, you ceased to be a "brother"!
Third, they are not told their are different, this kind of BS on the board, bashing cops and cops bashing citizens causes the the US vs THEM mentality creep into both camps. Thats why the lines of communications must remain open and flow BOTH ways. Thats why the LE community needs to lead in showing respect and expecting it in return.

Ok, I'll once again take my outdated old azz out of here.

Lee, sure glad you got your outdated things out of the way so I can speak my outdated stuff. The Dallas police are wayyyy down the list in gereral. Ran a business in Dallas for years and had to call them several times for customers on my route, they always jumped on me and I was the one who called. When they went coed every night the patrol cars would park in the cemetery behind the Adult drive inn and watch porn movies until the cemetery started locking the gates at dark. Had a druged kid drive her car over the curb into the side of my rent house, I happened to be coming by and stopped to see the damage, one of the policemen ordered me off the lot. I told him I was the owner and he responded the same. A sergeant came over and straightened thing out. I could go on and on but the tide is the same from most of us. Most street cops are A$$ holes unless they know you. Wasn't like that back when I held two commissions in NM. -- no

Frank-- glad you are mending. Several things are conspireing to keep me awfully close to the teepee this year. Would love to see your country again but not this year.

BCR