I have a question. Why does the county swat team dress in black and include masks and black cloth head covers under their helmets? I assume the black is so that they don't show up at night. I can understand that but what does the black cloth mask and black head covers do for 'em ? Frankly, it all looks a little over-done to the casual observer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Ya know, I've often thought that if someone was to observe armed people lurking around outside a neighbors house dressed such as that they should, ahem, shall we say "question" said persons as to what their business was.

Not exactly the way I would imagine law enforcement should be conducted.

I would think conducting business in this manner would cause un-necessary return fire.

Just my .02

It is supposedly for the officers "protection" and the "intimidation" factor. I call BS, as a former Peace Officer it would draw fire from me to see a bunch a armed individuals lurking about like that. Without positive visual and audible identification they are asking for it IMHO. As you can probably tell, I do not approve of the "new breed" of Law Enforcement, they are not military on search and destroy missions, they are supposed to be enforcing the law and "KEEPING" the Peace.

They want to look like S S Storm Troopers. It should alarm every American. Why it does not is beyond me. Their uniforms should be blue and identify them beyond any doubt as POLICE. I don't begrudge them any protective gear necessary to do the job but I do not like the Hitler S S look at all. There is a huge difference between a military assult force and a Police Special Weapons and Tatics squad. Tatics employed by a military force during a time of warfare become murder when used by a police force aginst it's own citizens. It disturbs me that our police SWAT people want to look, act, and deploy in a military assult force manner.

No flames or insults intended to our law enforcement people. You guys and girls have my utmost respect. Just voicing a concern about what seams to be a disturbing trend.

I thought it was, "To protect and serve"!! When our police officers start wearing masks it sounds more like vigilantes or afraid of repercussions if they are known for what they are doing. Kinda like some SS team. Those coffee drinking donut dunkin good old boys need an education in our freedoms. Mine says my home is my castle, my freedoms will not be infrenged. Probably get killed but break down my door at night and I won't be the only one. I'm still mad as heck about Waco and Ruby Ridge. Some pencil pushing dude behind a desk calling shots needs one himself. Start with Reno.-- no

PDS and Sonnie,
When I was still working all the SWAT team put on was a heavier vest and got out the long guns, we still looked like Peace Officers, I see no need today to alter that. But the new guys want to look "BAD" which is BS. No wonder people have less respect today. With them hiding their faces and badges what do they expect?

Some of the posters in the squad room look like the cops are some kind of SAEL team and have captions like "The Ultimate Law Enforcement". I'd like to see them torn down and replaced with copys of the Constitution and BoR!

OK, old fart, dinosaur rant off. Somebody pass me a Valium.

PDS,

Well said. I am also tired of guys (like O'Reilly, who should know better) who keep proposing we use the military to police our borders. The military mission and training is not compatible with policing civillians.

Blaine

AFP, heck who said anything about policing, we take prisoners, don't we? The aliens are just looking for a better life, and willing to do anything,(almost), put them to work building bridges and roads for prisoner wages and the women can do the cooking in the road camps. When they find out it's not a free ride back to the border for another chance to sneak in things will slow down. The way it is now they overload our welfare and medical system and when working, send the money back to Mexico. After a few short years they retire back to Mexico and live in luxury. -- no

This is what I was told by "them" (the guys in black). They wear black and cover their faces to look bad and to intimidate, which I think works very well. BUT, they should have police stamped on the fronts and backs of their helmets as well as on their vests. The reason they cover their faces is to keep them annonymous from would be law suits and wrongful arrests (they all look the same on camera). It also "supposedly" keeps the undercover officers undercover. These same officers work undercover narcotics and S.W.A.T. I think it is all a bunch of hewwey that gives way too much power to the police with no power to the people. On the raids I have seen, they don't even identify themselves as police. They just bust in and start throwing people around. It is no wonder that people are shooting back. They look like freaking gangs of black clad thugs breaking in to people's houses. Just one more way the innocent are losing freedoms. Flinch

No sir! Don't like it! Never did! Dressed like that they're not the police, they're the gov'ts jackbooted stormtroopers. No wonder the cops keep loosing respect. Dummies do it to themselves!

Sometime and somewhere and I don't know when or where peace officers became law enforcers. It used to be that you hired a simi tough guy to put on a badge and a gun and keep his neighbors from hurting each other. Then it changed and way too many bought into the militarization of the police. Way too many dumb laws were passed by well meaning but basicly ignorant politicians. Way too many bought the "WE are different, We are God" concept and harbor the idea that "civilians" would never understand. I don't think we will ever get back to just keeping the peace again. More's the pity.

BCR

First of all, I'm for individual rights and freedoms. I have been a police officer in a major MI city for some time. Everytime we go out, we're outgunned and handicapped by some dirt bags "civil liberties". SWAT team members are very often under cover officers or narcs; that is where the need for the masks came from. Its a mistake to say Tactical officers go around bashing the civilians they swear to protect. When they get called out, It's usually for a hostage rescue op or to take down a drug house. Their operations are usually the result of a major incident in which the average patrol units are not equipped to handle. Without their training and methods, there would be many more police funerals. Personally, I've attended too many in my day. Law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from SWAT teams and I believe an informed citizen would understand there need.

As for the old timer who said he was a peace officer, where did you do your tour and when? 20 years ago there were no ak 47 or ar 15s on the street. In todays picture, Hi powered/auto rifles are common . How else are we supposed to fight back. It's a totally different game today than 15 or 20 years ago.

As I said before, SWAT teams don't go around kicking in doors and bashing people for the fun of it. They respond to extremely high risk situations. The majority of the time, people don't even know they're around.

I agree Ruby Ridge and Waco were a mess. Let's not crap on the memory of the officers that died in those incidents but criticize the actions and decisions of their superiors.

That's enough for me for now. It's a pretty touchy subject when a misinformed person calls me a jackbooted thug!

Quote " Everytime we go out, we're outgunned and handicapped by some dirt bags "civil liberties".

Freedom must be a real bitch for some folks to put up with-Damn shame!

"It's a pretty touchy subject when a misinformed person calls me a jackbooted thug"

Well, If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, you can bet your ass it's a duck.

I suspose you are going to tell us that the police NEVER kick in the door on the wrong house? I know it happens. The address gets transposed by a dispatcher and the black clad storm trooper looking jackbooted thugs kick in the door before anouncing themselves as police officers. (They don't anounce themselves because they don't want to give the bad guys any warning)

I know I would get myself killed, but don't think for one second that I am going to take the time to ask if you are a police officer if you kick in my door. I'm going to be returning fire as fast as I can. My big RedAss over this whole topic is: In AMERICA we should not have to be concerned about this. We are protected from unreasonable search and seizure. Kicking in my door without anouncing your self as a police officer and serving me a warrant first is WRONG. Worse, it's illegal and it violates civil rights.

If you want to hide your face while doing your duty to protect the public then you must be doing something wrong or something you are ashamed of. If you are not then you don't have to fear legal action if your face is caught on camera in the performance of your duty.

If you look like a disrespectable thug should it suprise you that the public does not respect you.

Least you forget; a poliice forces duty is to protect the public not wage war on the bad guys or anyone else. If Civil Rights get in the way of you doing your duty to protect the public you should be questioning what you are doing.

I'm sure that law abiding citizens in Germany, Poland, etc...were also told that THEY had nothing to fear...........

We are on a slippery slope....it only goes downward....and it goes faster as you progress in that direction.

Getting to be a lot of ducks around anymore. If an officer is under cover why is he partisipating in a raid? He will have to go to court, does he wear his mask there? No partner, just like our politicians our police forces are getting out of line. Small town locals are beginning to play Rambo for the public. Touchy heck yes, for both sides. Waco, the force doesn't have a leg to stand on, climbing ladders to roof to break in a window like a thief, should have shot the whole bunch, perhaps then the supervisors would have got their due. Remember how many women and children were killed? Whose bright idea to drive a tank over a persons automobile? This sound like an American police force? Some police officers think they are above the law. Try to kick down T Lee as old ways, bull sxxx, a bullet is a bullet regardless what it comes from, if I remember correctly they used plenty of automatics back in the 20s and 30s. Ever hear of a Thompson or is that before your time? Trying to justify masks and black clothing is foolish, there are other ways. -- no

Perhaps the Police Departments should reconsider allowing undercover agents, and 'narcs', from being SWAT members?

Sounds like an easy problem to fix, but I suspect it's used as an excuse to maintain the status quo.

I still think the average criminal hestitates a split second before firing on a uniformed peace officer. Maybe not the hard core ones, but probably the vast majority would pause. By wearing an obvious police uniform, with a face, rather than the 'storm trooper' get up and mask, I think an officer may stand a better chance of walking away to serve another day.

Thompson hell, how would you like to face a BAR? They had a few of those around then too.

Easy boys, let's not get on mac's case too hard. Evidently he is a product of modern LAW ENGORCEMENT and has had drilled into him the concept that the cop is different and somehow "better" than the common herd. It isn't his fault and of course he is proud of what he does. It is a tough job as it always has been. It is an example of what I said. Enforecement becomes the be all end all and common sense and accomidation fly out the window. Too many dumb laws and too many kids think they need to be enforced to the full letter and cut no slack to anybody.
Give you an example. Here is this guy sitting on a park bench skunk drunk. Not bothering a soul just gassed up. Now is public intoxication a violation. Sure it is. Would I arrest him. Heck no, he isn't doing any thing to anybody why futz with him. But he is violating the law.
Or a kid riding a motor scooter with out a helmet. Is he violating the helmet laws? Sure he is. Arrest him? Why. He isn't hurting anything but himself maybe and despite what some of the new law boys feel I am not his mother.

BCR

mac84,

I ain't that "old" of an oldtimer, I retired in 1992. Seen a few changes in my time. Our S.W.A.T. team here (we didn't have one way back in my IL days) still wear a uniform of sorts, green BDU's with Dept. patches and an embroidered Badge on the front and SHERIFF in big yellow letters on the back. Yep, they carry the latest in weaponry and commo gear, but if they show up you damn well know they are the Police! Heck we even have a couple of helicopters with FLIR, night vision gear and enhanced listning devices. All to make sure we have the right place, FIRST!

I was a Deputy Sheriff in Will county Illinois, you know, right outside of Chicago. Then moved to Florida where my 37 year old daughter is Corporal of road patrol on my old department here in Southwest Florida.

In the "good" old days there wern't AK-47, sure enough, there were the same guns we carried and more powerful ones as well, organized BG's had Browning automatic rifles (30-06 full auto) that "High-Powered" enough for you? Thompson sub-machine guns, surplus Sten and MP-40's. We had .38 revolvers and 12 ga shotguns and a few Thompsons and M-2 carbines as well. Nothing has changed, just the vintage of weapons.

The major problem was the fact, THEY knew HOW to shoot them days, no movie "spray and pray" sideways shooting for them. The good old boy's here in Fl had rifles and shotguns, the druggies had black market M-16's, Uzi's and Mac-10's. Yep, they had that stuff 35 years ago, and wern't afraid to use them. At one point early on in my career we had to face hundreds of rioters and had snipers trying to take out anything that looked like a cop, not to mention, and you can check, the black panthers setting booby trapped cars around to catch the careless Officer.

How about WAY back in the roaring twenties and into the thirties when folks like Hammer and Purvis were working? Did they not face some bad shoot outs?

Gimmie a break, if you are a Peace Officer, you are one because you want to be. No need to hide your face and play special forces. Be proud of what you are and do the job identified as one. LE is a proud and honorable profession done by mostly dedicated ('cause they pay ain't that great) individuals. The minority of "hot dogs" are the ones that bring discredit to the fine men and women that make up the majority of the LE community.

I do blame the superiors in the Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents, but where was the self restraint on the part of line officers? Why do they allow themselves to get into a "feeding frenzy" like that?

They need to kick a door, better make damn sure it's the right door, our Judges would not pass out warrants like candy on Halloween, we needed to damn near prove the case bofore getting one, not on the say so of a paid informant or anonymous snitch.

As far as funerals go, I too have been in attendance at far too many "Full Dress with honors" funerals myself, in fact one would have been too many.

I also get PO'd when somebody thinks it was a walk in the park to be a Peace Officer 35 years ago, when we left the car we had no portable radio, and backup could be 30 minutes away. I wore my Badge and uniform with pride. I was not afraid to show my face to the BG's.In fact I wanted them to know who was busting them!

Nope, don't by into the "Ninja" stuff, if they are undercover's they need to stay undercover till court, no need to go on the raid in a face mask. Being right and rightious is enough to intimidat the BG's, that and a court system that will put them away, not molly coddle and slap them on the wrist. And my feeling's are the same now as they were then, if you choose to break the law, you choose to give up your "Civil Rights" period.

Bottom line is being a Peace Officer is not a "safe" job, if you want safe, be a stock broker. If you feel the need to hide the fact you are a Peace Officer, then you need to get into another line of work.

OK, I'll go back to my cave and make a new club and burn some Mammoth meat over an open fire.

I am not a cop-basher, far from it, but cops are not perfect and they have serious issues they need to work on. I would not consider becoming one, but my father was a NY State Trooper briefly in the early '50s. He always said there should be a law that anybody who WANTED to be a cop should be turned down.

Black suited SWAT team guys are only trying to live their "Star Chamber" fantasy, though the uniforms must be intimidating to those they confront.

It is the fact the police routinely get out of hand and then say they were only following orders that scares the hell out of me. Anyone who believes cops or soldiers would not turn on their own has not a clue about history. It will happen again, that is the sad part. How could the Nat'l Guardsmen pull triggers on the crowd at Kent State? Horiuchi on Mrs. Weaver? Everyone involved at Waco? Going to other nations only points out how much worse it can get. People are people.

Fact is, people, police included, are sheep.

There is nothing new about cops kicking in the wrong door. In August of '77 in Fairfield, CA, my older brother, 6'2" blonde with blue eyes had his door kicked in by police looking for the black kid across the street.

My brother was not terribly polite to them and got badly thumped, including a collapsed trachea (imagine the elbow shove that did that!) and was left gasping for air when they walked out and proceeded to move across Van Buren St to find the real perp.

Had he not lived so close to a hospital it would have been terminal.

The warrantless police had a decription and PHOTO of a 5'8" black minor and they were willing to kick in doors to catch him.

For various reasons, mostly the fault of my brother, he failed to get much in the way of money out of the fine city of Fairfield. He became a cop-hater and went out of his way around town to promote his views... bad idea.
art

Well said T.Lee. Flinch

Are you gonna eat that fat? Flinch

And now a little reality. Swat team members don't normally work the streets as undercover cops. But, occasionally, undercover cops do go on raids. That's because they know more about the local being raided, and BG's being raided.
They cover their faces for lots of reasons. One is that the face shows up real well at night. If you get into a fire fight, in the dark, you want to make it tough to be seen.
There have been some mistaken identity raids. Both cops and good guys have been shot and killed. Always the fault of the folks organizing the raid. Often the ones that don't go on the actual raid. They are responsible for notifying neighbors as the raid goes down, and to make sure the right home is raided. All the msitaken ID raids I'm aware of have been as result of some PC cop not doing his job.
Such places as Waco were named. Don't you remember that the "superiors" of that raid let their men walk into an ambush ?
You don't like the equpment they use, or their tactics in making raids ? They do that to remain safe while raiding. Long experience has shown modern law enforcement how to do this regularly and survive. Now, if you don't want them to make raids, tell them. No more drug raids. Afterall, we need not worry about "innocent" people using drugs, or alcohol. They don't hurt anybody while they are drunk or loaded. Right ?
This is exactly what happens in many areas. And the drug lords love it. That's were they set up their bussiness, where the cops won't go because of folks who don't like how they do things.
These "innocent" drunks and druggies do cause harm. They drive vehicles. They distrub the peace. They steal to get money for their drugs of choice. You want to put up with that ? Very few residential burgulars are not addicts.
These people do this for a living. If you've got a better way to do this sort of work, tell them. I'll bet real money they've tried your "better ideas". And have buried some friends as a result of somebody's "better idea". E

Emericus. I see you are from California, so maybe you remember the incident that soured me on the whole "no Knock" raid idea
There was a guy in Calif a few years back that owned a nice little ranch on the coast- worth a tidy sum if it happened to be seized by the government I guess
A DEA agant swore that the had seen Marijuana growing on the property during an overflight
A warrent was obtained because of this and a raid took place
The property owner heard his wife scream when the door was broken down and grabbed a handgun.
When he appeared at the top of the stairs he was shot and killed
No evidence of drugs was ever found
In California all parties in a crime which results in death can and should be charged with murder 1
False testimony is a crime in Calif.
So: crime commited- man dies- criminal is charged, right?
No way, no charges filed
It's OK with me if the Superiors and/or planners get the blame when something like this goes wrong, but damnit somebody should pay the price for lies or stupidity. Somewhere along the line someone is responsible but somehow these unknown people just walk away form it. Why?

I don't recall that case. But I've known several like it. The answer is to seek civil damges, like in the millions. Uncle Sugar has paid out many of our tax dollars because of this sort of thing. The ATF publicly states "we've never been sued". They've never had a case go to court, but they've been sued plenty. Uncle Sugar has always bailed them out with our money. The famous Ruby Ridge case was settled this way.
No knock raids are done for two reasons. To keep evidnece from being disposed of and for officer safety. I personally know a number of cops that were shot on drug raids. One had his face rearanged by another cop using a 12 ga. shotgun.
In spite of all this, these raids are still done. It is simply a matter of good people doing their jobs right. Ruby Ridge came about because Randy Weaver was entraped. Then a PC member of the FBI decided to change the ROE because they needed to make an example of him, I suspect. Waco went down as it did because Billy Clinton needed to make an example of them for his political agenda. Again, my take on it. There has always been alot of politics in law enforcement. E

Civill damages are fine- but guess who pays the fine? Me and you and every other taxpayer. If criminal charges and hard time could result, maybe the people responsible would be more cautious- as it is, they just go on doing this stuff
It's a tough choice, how much of our rights do we give up to lower the crime rate? I don't know the answer, but my gut tells me the present situation is not good

MONEY can not replace a loved one, not even a pet. Get a grip, our Dept. has to have all the T's crossed and I's dotted before even thinking about a raid. We have many successful arrests and seizures doing it the right way. I will not condone "sorry" when it comes to mistakes of this magnitude, no way. Sheep follow the shepherd, common sense and intelligence dictates we get it right the first time and be held accountable for ALL our actions, period. Hiding your face to keep from being identified, even in the name of camoflage is a BS excuse IMHO. They ain't looking out the windows or have sentries to "take out" like a military organization, they are usually asleep when raided. Oh, some, but damn few, are on guard, but that is what the element of suprise is all about. "POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT!" needs to be LOUDLY proclaimed as the door goes in as well as easily identifable uniforms worn, otherwise all bets are off. As I said before and will say again, BEING A PEACE OFFICER IS NOT A SAFE BUSINESS, it comes with much more risk of personal harm than many endeavors and you need to go into the job realizing this. And be willing to take the risks that are associated with it, not foolishly, but with the knowledge that you can get hurt or killed pursuing your chosen profession.

We have more than our share of druggies here as well as the normal complimet of miscreants, the Department still gets the job done some how by following the law. We even have some undercovers that attend these things, but they don't go in with the team, they go in after the scene is secured for their part. AND YEP THEY DO HIDE THEIR IDENTITY, till they testify in court.

I will never condon military type raids by Peace Officers when dealing with the criminal element, terrorists on the other hand might call for such tactics, but not with local authority alone unless there is a clear and present danger then and there.

Contrary to popular belief, we are not at war with the criminal element now any more than Wyatt Earp was. Keeping the peace and getting the BG's off the street is the function of Peace Officers, not "Search and Destroy" missions. A raid on a suspected criminal does not a "Free Fire Zone" make!

Do you by chance ever remember hearing the archaic phrase: "Presumed innocent till Proven guilty." It's the American way, I'll not tolerate street cop's being "Judge, Jury and Executioner" in my land. I might know in my heart you are guilty of a crime, but it is my job to prove it beyond a "reasonable doubt" to a court of law and jury of your peers.

Ever try to talk to one in authority,(policeman), they have all the answers,(and excuses)! A layman doesn't know anything, because the cop has been to school. He knows the only proper way to handle any situation. Especially how to cover his butt legally and physically when things go wrong. Police departments are worse than any "club" or "gang" about covering for their "brothers", be it a traffic violation or anything else. When a mistake is made it should be mandantory one step back in promotion or fired for serious mistakes with loss of pension and insurance, (Waco and Ruby Ridge). Many police agencies are irresponsible and practice entrapment to fill coffers,(and some pockets). Police are just people given authority and some are not too trustworthy just like politicians. --- Now ask me who I will call in an emergency. If at all possible I won't. Traffic accidents are a given. -- no

Case in point out of San Antonio last night. Read it in today's paper. Undercover boys had been watching a suspected drug dealer trying to find his stash. Saw him go into a house and not come out. Hurry up call to the swat team. All the happy band arrives and positons themselves. About then three individuals come out of the house. One gets in back seat of car. They thought the other one resembled the suspect. A female takes the drivers seat and starts to drive off at speed. The cops in their break in garb attempt to surround the car and demand surrender. The car speeds up and crashes into one of the parked police cars (unclear in story if it is marked or not). Police open fire.
Results. Occupant in passenger seat is 18 year old intoxicated male not the suspected drug dealer.
Back seat is occupied by a 14 year old male.
Driver is a 16 year old female, who is trying to get her drunk boyfriend home.
Outcome: They blew the brains out of a sixteen year old Mexican girl because they didn't make sure what they were doing before they did it.

I think it migh be just a tad too late to say Woops, we're sorry, big mistake. And go on about their merry way untill the next mistake.

BCR

Thank you Boggy, I rest my case.

Would like to hear the outcome of this one. Sounds like they might need to start taking guns away from our protectors. Some of these eager to play boys need to be called up for shipment to Iran. Kinda like high speed chases in metro-plex areas, two or more cars going fast in congested areas, someone is going to be hurt. It's not worth it. -- no

Damn, That set off a firestorm!

M apologies to Mr Lee. I meant no disrespect by my oldtimer comment. Thanks to everyone for posting your replies.

I fully agree that there are problems in Law Enforcement. These are usually the result of a very small minority of ego maniacal petty little men who become cops to assuage their feelings of inferiority. Most of the men and women I serve with have honor and integrity as I believe most officers do. We would never think to infringe upon a persons rights. It is very distressing to see day in and day out a BG's rights get more attention than their victims. ( that's what I meant about " some dirt bags civil liberties)

Law enforcement has changed over the last 20 years. The BG's especially the kids have absolutely no respect for anything. This is a debate on its own. I know there were automatics years ago, but today, the BG just sprays and usually ends up killing innocent civilians - kids mostly. Gang banging, drive bys, and car jackings have always been around. It just seems to be more of an epidemic in todays society.

Mr Lee, my crew does knock and announce and we wear fully marked gear. There is no mistaking us.

Hey, welcome to the board. For the most part the "firestoms" here remain unusually civil

Don't know the speed of dark but it keeps up with light! -- no

mac-- Not a real firestorm and glad you stopped by again. Almost everyone here has the utmost respect for the cops. We know as do you that the majority are just hard working individuals in a tough business doing their best to get home alive at the end of the day. It is just that the little tin gods with guns on their hips get the attention and there seem to be a lot more of them around than there used to be.
On the raids there also is most no one who thinks that they should never happen and we also know that we only hear about the ones that go sour.
What I belive most most will agree with is that since the police are suppose to be professional there is no excuse for being across the street at the wrong house. There is no excuse for shooting your partner. There is no excuse for going on just one un-substantiated report of something going down. It can not be a case of "Kill them all and let God sort them out,".
I believe that I understand the frustrations which todays PC laws bring on in the cops. What most object to is cops who hold themselves to be above or better than those who they are charged to serve and protect. We want those few individuals held accountable and their priveleges removed.


BCR

Attaway to go Boggy, sic-um!! ------- I think perhaps it's just us older Americans that see the difference. The young today just take it in stride as being normal. -- So they make a mistake, everyone does. So they shot the wrong guy, I didn't know him. -- no

mac,
in the case at ruby ridge the federal agents fired first, unannounced, without just cause, from hidden positions.

allow me to start again.....

the black hoods had and still do have at least one practical purpose. they are called blast hoods, and are worn in conjunction with electronically operated flash goggles, (similar to a modern welders flash hood, or the old S.A.C. pilots nuc flash visor) and appropriate head gear and ear protection...... these things were worn to allow operators to move in on terrorists, holding hostages, while flash bang grenades were being utilized. still a rugged way to operate, but done intelligently, it can be made to work. many hostages, when interviewed after recovery, express the desire to be shot, before beng exposed to a flash bang again........ so, the hoods can be useful under some operating conditions, in conjunction with other protective gear. just another tool in the bag.


i have never seen this sort of operation undertaken in a civil function, and i haven't given it much thought. i suppose though, that given the right exigencies it might be justifiable...... if a criminal were to announce the intention to kill or do great and irreparable harm, or offer overwhelming evidence of his ability and intentions toward the same end, it becomes more a matter of defense of life than a matter for the courts to ponder..........

if, however, in the course of daily business (be it on the street, or in my home) i discover an armed and masked person or persons, they are a legitimate target. even if i have to scour the ground for stick or stone.

if, in this country, any court or enforcement agent has business with me, let them present it with the proper accreditation........ john w

Hold on here folks. The cops surround, or attempt to surround the car ? They car attempts to flee ? Over one of the cops who got in the way ? The occupants were intoxicated ? On what ? No drugs found in the house ? Anything about any house search at all ? At press time I mean. The law, as I understand it, is that they can't raid the house before they get a warrant. Surrounding the house, with a raid team as they wait for a warrant is often done.
I've been there in things like this before. If it is reported right after the shooting, blood test results aren't published simply because they can't do them that quick.
Of all the shootings I've seen, none ever get reported accurately. The reporters leave something out because they don't see it's significance. Or, since no complete investigation is finnished yet, they simply don't have the facts. Or, often times, they have a hidden agenda. Or they can't believe that some 14-16 yr. old is a real bad guy. I've seen kids 12 yrs. old selling drugs to undercover narcs. I know of an in custody 14 yr. old girl that killed a careless deputy while in handcuffs. You suspect they are in the wrong because of what you read in paper, and the fact that a teenage girl was killed while "simply trying to take her drunk boyfriend home. "
BTW, cops do get indicted and prosecuted. I personally know of several cases. It is rare that they are convicted. Why ? Because prosecution is often based on PC motives and conclusions based on less than the complete picture.
By the time the accused cop gets to tell his side of the story - the agencies rarely do that these days - he is already on trial, etc. This has gotten so bad in places like New York City, that cops will threaten and sometimes actually do, stage a job action, like a sick in, or a work slow down, to get fair treatment for their fellow cops.
How does that strike all of you critics ? If you piss off your cops they refuse to work for you. Strap on your guns guys. Buy some hand grenades. Your cops have decided not to go to work for a while. E

Well now, since you brought it up, I can remember when everyone had a gun. We left our houses unlocked, slept with the windows open, had to hunt for a door key. That was before we had police departments with huge budgets and government taking us by the hand leading us where ever they wanted to take us. Strangers stayed on the sidewalk coming up to your front door to knock and anounce who they were and what they wanted. No one prowled around your house for fear of getting shot. People respected each other and their property. We had no drug dealers and such, they would have been taken care of by decent folks living in the community. If everyone had a gun burglaries, car jacking, rapes, gangs, would be a thing of the past. Why is it in the states where concealed carry has been authorized the crime rate has declined. Why is it police departments look for ways to give citations to the citizens to extort money from them. Our police departments have turned into a strong arm department for politicians more than anything else. Major function is traffic citations and anything to do with automobiles, license, tags, inspection stickers. The list goes on and on while becoming more and more expensive to the tax payer. Hey, you may be on to something here, arm the citizens we wouldn't have to worry if the guys in blue are going to show up or not. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> -- no

In the words of that great orator, Rodney King,

C-C-C-Can't W-W-W-We All Just-t-t G-G-Get A-A-A-Along? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But really, I don't care if they are wearing HAZMAT outfits, they need to ID themselves and have their outfits labeled large enough to be seen.

I still would have a problem with a quickly hollered "POLICE" followed immediately with my door crashing in! I can see where if my wife screamed and the dog went nuts at the sound of the door caving in and I was near a firearm, I'd have it in my hand when I entered the room.

Sonnie nailed it. The politicians and Police departments are using LEOs as revenue collecters.

I said it before, you'll find a--holes in any profesion, unfortanately the bad LEOs color all of the others with the same brush.
7mm

Then obviously your guys are doing it the right way, good.



No apology needed, was a good excuse to bang my drum.



That is the root of most evil today, but it is a two way street. Todays Peace Officer has to set the example and lead the way, they are the most visable ones.



Right back to the respect thing. The youth of today have no respect for authority or their fellow man for that matter. This IMHO falls on the heads of PARENTS and the schools.




You betcha, They been around since the beginnig. Most I know are as you say, professionals, but the few ruin it for the majority and then the US vs THEM mentality sets in. A viscious circle if ever I saw one! Thanks for the intelligent responses, I enjoy inserting my "oldtimers" view point in for consideration of the "kids" on the block. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What the heck do you expect them to do, they can't strike, they ain't truck drivers!

And yep, I have seen some real bad cookies under the age of majority, my Mother-in-Law could curdle your blood with some of her stories. You see she was an Assistant Warden for one of Illinois Max security JUVINILE facilities, you know the murders, rapist, armed robbers ET AL. Some as young as 10! Killed a neighbor for their welfare check then cry themselves to sleep in the jug.

Me too, and boy do I ever miss it.

In fact a couple of times early in my career I had "plain old citizens" help me out of sticky situations, thank GOD!



Way too logical Sonnie, heck crime might just go down. I think it Heinline that said 'An ARMED society is a POLITE society."

One big reason for the screw ups in you local police departments rest with the leadership.Average police chief today is not a professional cop-he is a professional politician concerned only with his image with the city fathers.Knows little or nothing of how to do the job on the street.Promotes the officers that are best at kissing his butt rather than those that do a good competent job.Starts feel good programs that sound good to citizens but don't do anything to curtail crime.If you want to improve your local police department start at the top.

Frank, I couldn't agree with you more. Look at it this way, if there were no crime the police department would loose funds and shrink. No police chief wants that. Kinda like the NRA needs the anti crowd to keep their jobs. -- Everything has an angle this day and time and most of it is pointing at getting in the working mans pocket. --- Bush is the first honest man to try and actually give something back to the public. I won't get any but glad for those that do. -- no

Say Centurion, that's a pretty broad brush you're painting police management with. I've worked in city management for over 25 years, and have evaluated and hired a number of police and fire chiefs. The top candidates are thoroughly professional and have years of experience as well as education. Not to say there aren't bad chiefs, especially in podunk towns that can't afford to pay for talent, but those I have worked with have been top notch. It's been my experience that cops who bad mouth their command staff are most often the ones who have been too lazy to get the education to prepare themselve for advancement, and want to get promoted based on seniority, or on the basis of a mickey mouse civil service exam where the questions are provided in advance, so they run down the hard working, ambitious officers. Yeah, there are brown nosers in every group, but any manager will favor employees who do their jobs diligently. It's also the lazy asses who are the ones who hide behind their union. They also tend to be the ones who hate their jobs, but don't have the guts or ambition to find a different line of work, so they just hang around, do as little as possible, and wreck morale and teamwork. Maybe I've been lucky, but the police departments I've worked with have been staffed with real professionals at all rank levels. As far as chiefs being political, get real. Government is about politics, and if you think it's easy balancing the interests of various constituencies, try working in government management or running for office.

Paul39

amen Ira, well said.

Thanks

Mac

Paul, sorry to say you hide just as all politicians. Most rural areas cannot afford college degree personnel, there are more rural areas,(small towns), than major cities, the small town police see all this big city stuff and want the same black clothing, masks, assault gear, so they can look up to date and ready to go. There is no way a police department is going to intimidate anyone inclined to do wrong. I am supprised more of these tin stars are not assinated in their autos. Probably the reason for the masks. -- no

no,

Me a politician? Hiding? Remember me, we were in the AF at the same time. I'm an employee, not an elected official, and I agree with the basic premise that the black-clad ninja assault teams are overkill. My beef with Centurion is that he made a sweeping generalized attack on police management. I have worked with law enforcement for years, and could write a dissertation on police personnel, but that is outside the purpose of this site. They are an interesting and varied group. Like I said, most of the LE folks I have worked with have been great people, but I have seen my share of the others too. With the awesome power we give the police, they need to meet high standards and be held accountable. I have no use for the bad apples, and do everything in my power to keep them from being hired and straightened out or removed whereever possible.

Paul

Paul 39,
I worked in law enforcement for 20 years. I have a bachelors degree in the field and turned down two promotions because I liked working the street instead of flying a desk.I have never belonged to a union.My last chief of police was appointed by the mayor who had two qualifications-he was republican and a tv repairman.I always tried to keep morale up but that became real difficult when they give you a list of people never to arrest because they are politically connected. If you have that much time in city management and have never seen this type of situation you are either very lucky or are in the ozone.If it is because you are unaware of the actual workings of your department then you are part of the problem.

Frank-- Good to see you posting again. Where you been hiding?

BCR

Morning Centurion

Like I said in my earlier post, maybe I have been lucky in working with good PDs. Just one man's experience. I'll bet you've encountered the slugs and whiners I described during your career as well. After the AF I worked a number of grunt jobs and went to college late; didn't become a manager until my late 30s. Now if I'd been really smart I'd have become a cop like my brother and been retired by now. So, it's off to work I go.

Paul

Hi Boggy-Been right here lurking.Bout two weeks ago a head cold settled in my ears, messed up hearing and balance.It's clearing now.Didn't really intend to get on my soapbox on this issue.Appears I gored somebody's ox.Certainly not the first time.You coming up this way with NO in the spring?

I understand the police, not just today but always, have to deal with the real dregs of society and can get a little jaded. Understanding that they have a hard job and that a lot of people treat them badly, I have always tried to treat uniformed officers like "just folks", friendly and politely. So can someone please explain these to me?

At the Boise River Fest, a big three day family event, two officers on horseback were watching the crowd. My wife, 40-ish with 11 year old daughter in tow, and just about the most outgoing and animal loving person I know, wanted to pet the horse. I winked at her and jokingly said, �just be sure you pet the horse and not the police officer� and gave the officer a friendly smile. His response? �Lay your hands on this horse and I�ll throw your a** in jail for obstructing an officer.� Okay, could he not have said, "ma'am, I have to keep an eye on this crowd so I'm afraid I can't let you distract my horse," or something to that effect?

My wife and I went out to dinner and a movie a few summers ago, I had not been out after dark for weeks as it doesn�t get dark until ten o�clock. Local police officer pulled me over for a headlight out. Okay, no problem, I did not know it was out, thanks for letting me know. I understand that any traffic stop is tense for an officer, so I keep my hands on the wheel in plain sight. Responded to the officer politely, not fawning or smart-ass �Yes, Sir!, No, Sir!�, just friendly and polite. He called in my license number and name for a routine check, apparently he could not get a hook up to his central computer or whatever. I asked him to be sure to use my name AND social security number as there is a fellow in Florida with my same name who has an arrest record a mile long � I have had confusion with that character before. After 10 minutes he came back and said �I can�t run your license number, the computer is down�. Me: �That�s okay, I can asssure you I�m not wanted for anything.� Him: �Don�t give me that crap. I can�t prove anything now, but if you�re lying to me I�ll hunt you down and throw your a** in jail.�

Someone drove off and left a brand new Buckmark .22 on a shooting bench at the range two years ago. I did everything I could to find the owner � posted a notice in the club newspaper, left big signs on that bench and at the club bulletin board, called the sheriff�s department of three counties, even posted a big note on my table at the Boise gun show �Found pistol � identify it to claim it�. After six months no luck. At that same range one day I met a acquaintance who is a sniper in the Boise Police Department � real nice guy and a helluva shot. I have been in a local theater group with his wife for years. We aren't buddy-buddy but are at least on a first name basis with each other. He was with another officer. I explained the situation and asked for their advice as to what more I could do to locate the owner. The �other� officer proceeded to tell me in no uncertain terms (i.e. graphically and profanely) just what he could and would do to me and how long a jail term I was in for if I sold or otherwise unlawfully disposed of stolen or lost property.

Went in to the Payette Sheriff�s department to renew my concealed carry license. Went up to the deputy behind the desk and showed him my current license and paperwork for renewal. Since being issued the previous license I had married and due to not having to eat my own cooking had gained some weight, he asked if that was me (referring to the picture on the old license) and I said yes, one wife and lots of good home cooking ago. Again, just trying to be friendly and make polite conversation. Him: �Look, a**hole, don�t get smart with me! I�ll tear this f***ing application up and stick it up your a**�.

Now, I am a middle aged white guy usually dressed in casual business wear � Dockers and a button down shirt. Four out of four encounters with law enforcement in non-threatening situations and I am treated like scum. I don�t attract a lot of enemies, those of you that have met me know I�m not generally an a**hole (at least I hope not). Maybe it is just my rear end that is the problem � they always seem to want to throw it in jail. But seriously, after being treated like this so consistently why am I supposed to believe that the police are my friends? Did I just happen to catch four separate people in really bad moods? I know that one fellow who is a Boise cop so I know that they can be friendly.

So I really hate to admit this, I really do, but I see uniformed law enforcement officers as the enemy. Someone to avoid. You can get on my case for this, you can argue with me if you want, but I have to be honest. It bothers me, a lot, that I have come to think like this. But I do.

Man oh man can I relate, Jim. Every cop I have run into in the last 5 years has treated me like a thug. I went to THEM with questions or concerns and I was the bad guy all of the sudden. I avoid them like butt rash now. Flinch

First, I'll start with all the usual disclaimers; Cops have a tough job yadda yadda blah blah blah. The fact is that there is a dangerous rift between the police and the policed. Somewhere along the journey to become a LEO, the individual is told that they are a separate and distinct culture from the people at large. A little further along, they see themselves as above the law.

Here's a simple test, Ask your favorite LEO (assuming that you're friendly with one) this; If you were on duty, saw a car driving erratically and pulled it over, only to discover your partner at the wheel blind drunk, would you arrest him and take him into custody to face charges of DUI?

So c'mon all you LEO types, what's your answer?

Jim in Idaho

First, it sounds like you ran into four people having a bad week. If in fact you did act as you stated (and I am not doubting you) 1 you should have asked to see a supwrvisor, 2 if not forthcoming, you should have filed a formal complaint to the Department AND the governing body (city admin, county commission, state police Hq) IN WRITING. 3 Follow up with phone calls and go to the press if you still get no satisfaction.

The horse thing really puzzles me, my daughter is second in command of the possee. They, unless actually doing crowd control encurage people to meet their horses, same with the K-9 unit here. They do demonstrations and let the people meet the dogs.


ebd10

First, yes they do have a tough job, but they choose to do it so should have no complaints.
Second, we had a Deputy on our Dept. that was a serious drinker, caught him one night about 4:00 AM. since we are on the same Dept. I called Florida Highway Patrol and had them arrest him. Had he been a bit tipsy I probably would not have, but he was a danger to the public and himself, so he went to the can on DUI and lost his job. He confronted me a couple months later and asked how I could do that to a "brother" Deputy. My answer then and would be still. When you chose to break the law, you ceased to be a "brother"!
Third, they are not told their are different, this kind of BS on the board, bashing cops and cops bashing citizens causes the the US vs THEM mentality creep into both camps. Thats why the lines of communications must remain open and flow BOTH ways. Thats why the LE community needs to lead in showing respect and expecting it in return.

Ok, I'll once again take my outdated old azz out of here.

Lee, sure glad you got your outdated things out of the way so I can speak my outdated stuff. The Dallas police are wayyyy down the list in gereral. Ran a business in Dallas for years and had to call them several times for customers on my route, they always jumped on me and I was the one who called. When they went coed every night the patrol cars would park in the cemetery behind the Adult drive inn and watch porn movies until the cemetery started locking the gates at dark. Had a druged kid drive her car over the curb into the side of my rent house, I happened to be coming by and stopped to see the damage, one of the policemen ordered me off the lot. I told him I was the owner and he responded the same. A sergeant came over and straightened thing out. I could go on and on but the tide is the same from most of us. Most street cops are A$$ holes unless they know you. Wasn't like that back when I held two commissions in NM. -- no

Frank-- glad you are mending. Several things are conspireing to keep me awfully close to the teepee this year. Would love to see your country again but not this year.

BCR

It became a "them and us" in the early 60's. Thanks to the hippy movement and the anti war protesters. It's even worse today than anytime in history. I don't like the black uniforms, because I have black sights on my weapons, although I have scopes on my rifles.

Dan

I don't know boys, there is something about being put in a position of authority that goes to a lot of peoples heads. They can't handle it. My old grand daddy used to say that more good men have been ruined by wearing a pistol and keeping a stud horse than any thing else in the world. There is one guy in an adjoining county that is a prime example. Paul is as nice a guy as you want to meet but when he puts on his uniform he turns into a complete bas***d. On top of that he is an idiotic bas***d.
We are pretty fortunate here in my little old county in that there are still enough true hard case people around that when a deputy or trooper starts to get too big for his britches a few quiet talks and a couple of "Hey sonnie boy listen up a minute" has so far worked things out. I don' t have any experience with big city boys any more thankfully.

BCR

I've heard alot of stories simular to Jim's by friends and neighbors. Most of them involve local police or "Town Clowns".

Based on my own expriences, I find that local township cops seem to have more attitude, usually bad. The PA State Police, OTOH have, with one exeption, always seemed both curteous and profesional. I've got nothing but respect for them.

I've had several occasions to meet State Cops. Some that have cost me money over traffic violations <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />, some where they were doing their best to help out. I've seen them approach a growling "mad dog", thought to be rabid, investigating robberies, and just generaly "keeping the peace".

Only once, have I met one with "attitude". Of course he was pretty young, and I've heard many times that newbie cops have a Rambo attitude and think they're God's gift to law enforcement. This guy seemed to prove that rule, but all the others I've met were respectful, even though alot of times, I'd broken the law.

Most of the town cops I've seen, were the opposite. Harrassing folks, throwing their weight around, and acting like jerks. And I've never gotten a citation from one, that's just the impresion I got.

I've got the utmost respect fpr State Cops, and It's them who (At least around here) deal with the real criminals. I'd bet 90% of what the town cops deal with around here are traffic stops or busting teenagers. Town cops or Game Wardens, I've got nothing for.
7mm

I've strong opinions upon this thread,but will leave them go as I doubt anything will be realized. So I'll spare you boys those thoughts and have me a big piece of JJ's cake.

Will close in saying,that I'm thankful I had the wits to reside in a small community,that largely never has to deal with the things many of you gents seemingly get upon a regular basis...................

I guess I've been lucky. I've been pulled over roughly to 10 times since I've started driving, ranging from a handful of tickets to headlights out and routine stops. Add a few more "interactions" with fish cops. I always treat them with respect and have received nothing but courtesy, even when they're writing me a speeding ticket! Most in fact were damn nice guys. Fact of the matter is, I deserved every speeding ticket I've received <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />(not many, fortunately) and readily admitted it. Hell, I've been let out of a couple more that I deserved. Guarantee they'd of been written if I'd of been a jerk or in the least bit disrespectful.

My feelings are YES, there are some jerks, but at the same time these guys are doing a damn dangerous job and never know when the next speeder is going to pull a gun and end their days.

It's a grief to me to have this opinion but I've come to the same view of police as Jim in Idaho. I started with the high view of police passed on by my father, and have been worn down through negative, rude, high handed, abuse of authority experiences over the years. I have solemnly cautioned my children to have as little to do with police as possible, and if a policeman is asking any question remotely connected to them personally, to shut up and get a lawyer.

Yet I respect the police and am grateful for the difficult job you do. I've just learned to avoid abuse and rudeness by avoiding police on duty.

In America, we assign police an extremely difficult task: to enforce the law and keep peace while severely limited by civil rights. We know, as the Founding Fathers knew, that Civil Liberties hamper police work. But until very recently, we preferred freedom and innocent until proven guilty over efficient police work. If a policeman is unwilling to work within the restraints of the Constitution, he should go into other work. That eliminates most people from the job right there. Yes, we tie the hands of police with civil rights, and we do it knowingly, on purpose. Live with it or get another job. If enough people quit, the pay will go up.

In my work I have become friends with several policemen, good friends with two of them. A third colleague, now out of police work but with many LE friends still at local and federal levels, told me calmly one day that he does not trust police, and that the higher the level of police involved, the less he trusts them. This from a decorated big city officer assigned to guard the President when he was in town, a pioneer in early SWAT team development, etc. who is now a successful respected businessman.

Twice I've seen local police harrass and do their best to pin a felony on an innocent person, once because the cops didn't like the guy (with some bad mouth reason, but that isn't grounds for a felony charge), and the other out of religious bias is all I can guess. The second case had zero evidence to charge and considerable exonerating the accused and charges were never filed. The sheriff finally told the overzealous cop in that case to drop it and do something useful. In the former case, the local cops won. They arrested, charged and got a conviction in a local court. The first appeal judge threw the entire case out because the evidence was bogus any way you looked at it, and had been from the moment the cops made it up and supressed contrary proof. The cops are happy. The young man left the state and I have advised him he would be foolish to return.

The Republicans use crime and the wars on drugs and terror as excuses to suppress civil rights. The Democrats use gun violence and equality laws to do the same thing.

I will concur that every highway patrol officer I've come in contact with, in any State, has been courteous, whether giving me a deserved ticket on on other duty. Many Canadian Mounties in the same situation are courteous but a consistently sizeable percentage of them have a Rambo complex.

I, for one, am getting real tired of bad guys getting off because the cops, often with the help of the DA or assistant DA, cooked, altered, added to, or created the evidence. If they don't have enough real evidence to convict him, then he has to be let go. That is our system. It ain't perfect, but better than the alternatives. I think that in ANY cases, from speeding tickets on up to death sentences, that if anyone in the system can be shown to have knowingly falsified evidence, they should have to serve out the maximum sentence the falsely accused could have or did receive, up to and including death. Lucky for us that I'm not Czar for a year. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

CAT, I could live with that as long as it is proven they falseified the evidence. A liar has no business in authority or leadership. We could bury them on your back 40 and fertilize the whole area, course I don't know what it would grow. -- no

I don't know about your law enforcement agencies but the ones in my area are strife with corruption. Seems there is a new grand jury investigation every week. One small town's police chief just resigned amid a grand jurys probe into his actions regarding one of his boys drinking with an underage female, he also closed down a kops'n kids athletic program - nobody seems to know where thousands of dollars went. We have some good cops but alot of corrupt ones, especially the upper echelon. All the females I know in law enforcement are messed up, they get involved in infidelty, sex harassment cases etc. I'm not going by rumors either. MtnHtr

Mtn Hunter:

Save some of those female officer's phone numbers that are involved in infidelity...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wow, this thing went south did it not?

I would like to add a few comments to what I've said eairler. I have many friends who are law enforcement people; City cops, DPS Troopers, Border Patrol,Game Wardens, and one CIA field agent have shared my fishing boat, hunting camp, and dinner table. I have the utmost respect for them all. And I can tell you that each one of them have voiced opinions about the black clad storm troopers. They all think it is way out of line. They talk about those types as "Rambos" and military wantabes. The most common thread running through all my friends is that they are all over 35 years old and know what the United States Constituition says and means.

Another thing they all have in common is this; Each and every one of them is involved in a church, Scout Troop, civic club, or other activity that brings them into contact with good people. Average law abiding citizens. That's how they keep from becoming "jaded" and turning into a$$ holes.

This really happened. I was living in the Los Angeles area in a nice home. Our next door neighbors consisted of a lady with three kids, one girl 17 and two boys, one 22 and the other 19. The lady also had her elderly mother living with her. The 22 year old wasn't home. The lady worked at McDonald Douglas.
At 3:30am the "SWAT TEAM" without warning busted down the front door, tore into each bedroom and dragged all out to the front yard and laid them face down on the grass with a shotgun at the back of their heads. Yes, even grama. They held the women out side and took the 19 year old man to the upstairs bathroom where they broke his leg (interogating) him. They then let them all go but told the mother if any reports came in about this they'd be back and wouldn't be as nice.
This really happened, it woke me up, I was next door watching all the comotion. Until you see it for yourself you wouldn't want to
believe it.
David

stronics, you seem to have left out a major piece of that story ....

If I were to encounter these "Ninjas" LF or not (around here marked SWAT), my hands imediately raise in the air. Tuffest job out there... IMHO